[Just your average movie goer]

Don't worry. I think it's going over to the Debate Club soon. Slade said something about moving it.

I don't care what anyone says about land, this fight is about RELIGION. It's about the Middle East vs. The Jews, that's what it's been about for 2000 years.

It's a good point you made there, Vwing. But if you read my post, I mentioned that as well. That's why I think it was particularly foolish of the world community to place the Israelite State in the Holy Land. That was just asking for trouble... and trouble is what we got.

Also, we do know about the large numbers of Palestinian terrorist attacks. And we don't condone those attacks either. What we're saying is that these people are getting pretty desperate. Israeli tanks are demolishing their homes. Israeli soldiers are shooting at them and their children and so they feel that they must do something. Terrorism is not the answer, we know. But these people are desperate. Also bear in mind that we don't think for a second that all Palestinian terrorists are good people at heart... many of them are probably the monsters the media makes them out to be. But many more would be just poor, desperate people who are trying to defend what's left of their country.

Also, I do know that two wrongs don't make a right. And part of the problem over there is that both sides always retaliate against the other. Now, as the much stronger, more organised side of the two, Israel should be the one to stop.

Basically the cycle goes like this - Israel drives the Palestinians a little further away and kills a few civilians. Palestinian terrorists retaliate and kill a few Israeli civilians. Here, it would stop under normal circumstances... except that Israel then attacks again, in retaliation to the Palestinian retaliation. And this causes the whole thing to start again. So I think, when Israel stops driving tanks into what's left of the Palestinian state and killing civilians, both sides might have a shot at coming to a peaceful settlement.

Lastly regarding the idea of the poor Palestinians with their rocks, etc... yes, I do realise that many of them are well-armed with modern weapons. But not all of them. And Israeli soldiers have shot little children who were throwing rocks at them. And even when you compare Israel with the Palestinians who do have modern firearms, you may notice that while Israel has one of the most advanced armies in the world with all the latest technology (supplied by the US), the Palestinians either make their guns themselves or get them from the black market.

Okay, I think I'll stop there. That's enough arguing for today.

[J m HofMarN]

"that it IS a trend in the world today for people to not only deride America for every single thing they do"

Perhaps they know something most Americans don't? There is a word for what Bush is doing. It is called Imperialism.

That's why the Palestinians will, like the Viet Cong, fight till the last man, because they believe that there will be a better afterlife for them if they do.

Bullshit. If they thought like that they'd just run out in the streets and shoot themselves. No. They fight because they have no bloody choice. You know what I'd do if there were Israeli tanks driving down my street? THE SAME THING THEY'RE DOING! I would not stop until I drove out the invaders or shed every drop of blood in my body. They dont fight because they want to go to heaven they fight for their homes and their families. There are VERY few men who will die for a religion. Most of them have become Saints. No. The Palestinians fight for something both tangible (food, jobs, housing) and things intangible (safety, liberty, independence from fear) You're crazy if you think ANYONE would just say "I think I'll blow my ass up today and go to heaven.

To reiterate. I am proud to say that I would do the same thing the Palestinians are doing if Israeli forces dared to invade my country, shoot at my family and demolish my home. I am damned proud of that. It has nothing to do with me loving my government, it has something to do with pride, decency, courage, the things that make men decent. The Palestinians have these things in abundance.

"And Israeli soldiers have shot little children who were throwing rocks at them."

Let me expand on this point. 3000 Palestinians have been killed. 1000 Israelis have died. And do you know what the big difference is? The Palestinians mostly kill by suicide bombings. Which, regardless of what you may say about them, are a desperate and not cowardly action. Compare this to how the Israeli storm troopers work. They wear body armor and have field medics and all sorts of things to keep them safe. And they have guns. They take aim at Palestinian children, holding their bodies in their sites and then squeezing the trigger. You have to look at someone to shoot them. They aim for women, children, husbands and old men. The Palestinians kill in indiscriminate and arguably insane rage. The Israelis look into the eyes of their victims like the bloody murderers they are.

The Israelis kill more people than the Palestinians with less danger to themselves.
They have tanks. The Palestinians have none. They have an airforce. The Palestinians have none. They havecruise missiles and nuclear weapons. The Palestinians have none. How else do you propose that the Palestinians fight back against this behemoth of terror and oppression other than the obvious: Any way they can.

I say now that the Israelis are cowards. They hide behind body armor, modern communications, airstrikes, armored personnel carriers, tanks, missiles, monstrous bombs, poison, torture, endless jails (7000 Palestinians are illegally imprisoned) bulldozers toppling houses, fighter jets, helictopters. Then they say that the PALESTINIANS ARE PICKING ON THEM??? That's like the US claiming Iraq was picking on us! Bull! The Palestinians had this war forced upon them and god willing they will achieve victory.

"I would just like to say that the P.L.O was originally founded as a terrorist organization."

The American government started out in the same way. Read what the British said about us. American guerillas fought the superior British army to defend their homes. They used irregular tactics. If that had happened in the modern day I guarantee old king George would be screaming "terrorists! terrorists!" The Palestinian Liberation Organization has since renounced terrorism and recognized Israel's right to exist. Your argument is moot.

"The Israelites - Don't care if Palestinians gets their own state as long as they are left in peace."

You couldn't be more wrong if your name was Wrongy McWrong. The Israelis have built huge settlements in Palestinian lands so they can claim them. Many Israelis want to subjugate the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Sharon is one of these but has by now abandoned the Gaza strip due to the actions of Hamas.

"

It's about the Middle East vs. The Jews, that's what it's been about for 2000 years"

Ummm until the 1900s Arabs and Jews lived together in peace. The Ottoman empire didn't mind Jews at all. However when it fell and the British took over Palestine they oppressed both Jews and Muslims, turning one against the other and while they squabbled for scraps the British took all that they could from their rule of TransJordan (as it was then called) The present conflict only started since around ww2.

[Vwing]

Yeah I actually went back to your post after I wrote that and saw that I missed that part of it about religion. Just didn't feel like editing the post. I'm just too damn lazy .

[Vwing]

You're crazy if you think ANYONE would just say "I think I'll blow my ass up today and go to heaven.

For someone so cynical, I'm surprised you could be that naive. The Islamic faith leaves more openings for extremism than almost any other faith. These extreme followers believe that if they kill themselves for a good cause, like eradicating the enemy, then they will go to heaven.

And JM, the fight HAS been going on for 2000 years. Not necessarily about Israel itself, but the fight between Jews and Islam and all the other Middle Eastern shit has been going on for ages. This fighting, here in the 20th century, this is just an offshoot of that, using this land as an excuse for the fighting. That's what it's all about. It's about religion, about getting to heaven, getting their virgins, and living a good afterlife instead of a good LIFE. That, more than anything, drives these people. That, more than anything, is why Arafat would not accept the peace he was offered. That, more than anything, is why no other countries who claim to support the Palestinians have given their lands, that they have no use of, to the Palestinians. They want the Jews dead. Not just Israel. All the Jews. That is how these people, most of these people, think.

But you right about one thing, JM. It is crazy. It's f'n insane. But like many other things in this world, just because it's crazy doesn't mean it isn't true. On the contrary, it is a harsh and bleak reality. A crazy reality. But a reality nevertheless.

[civilian_number_two]

I can't believe anyone would entertain any notion that the underlying motive behind martyrdom could be anything other than religious.

Even in the US, where patriotism is often separated from religion, you will hear about God in virtually every speech or dialogue about war. And I'm not talking about the days of the Civil War; I'm talking about right now.

On the other hand, there actually is a lot to be said about popular movements and fads. If everyone is constantly talking about money and consumer produsts, then somehow that's what you want. If everyone were to start talking about driving out the Muslims from America, I dare say the American public would be in a fervor (anyone remember a few years ago, when just saying "9/11" often enough menat you got to invade Iraq?).

I think if every America citizen had a machine gun, and someone suggestd Elvis Presley were alive and held captive in the White House, you'd have a war with suicide bombers and battle hymns sung by Britney Spears.

And I'm not joking.

[J m HofMarN]

These extreme followers believe that if they kill themselves for a good cause, like eradicating the enemy, then they will go to heaven.

*Warning. Warning. Sarcasm levels exceeding safe dosage.*

Yeah, it's not like any other religions say that you go to heaven for fighting for a good cause.

*Sarcasm level now returning to normal.*

[Jordan]

Yeah, it's not like any other religions say that you go to heaven for fighting for a good cause.

I can't think of one major religon that supports instant paradise after slaying the foe other than Islam.

[J m HofMarN]

Funny, I seem to remember the pope once leading all of Christendom to kill the muslims in holy war where if the christians died they went to heaven immediately. Have you ever even read the quran? I never saw anything about seventy virgins or going to paradise for blowing up a bus. I think you're just believing whatever the media tells you, speaking of which:

Did you know that in secion 23 B of the Quran it says that its ok to drink the blood of little children? Seriously man, those muslims are evil I heard it on the news.

[Vwing]

I didn't say Muslims are evil. I said the Islamic faith seems to leave more room for extremism than other faiths. I knew you would bring up the Crusades, but again, any faith can be viewed from an extreme perspective. There are people alive today, Christians, who view it like that, more than we know. But if you take an objective look at the world, there is more Islamic extremism than Christian extremism, or Jewish extremism, or Buddhist extremism. And these people will stop at nothing to serve God and get into heaven by killing the infidels. I can't believe you don't see that.

Civ, it's not just Americans, though I do agree that the "patriotism" shown after 9/11 and before Iraq was eerie and almost disgusting. But any people can be made to be like that, and usually they are mobilized by religion. I sincerely doubt the Elvis Presley thing, I know it was an exaggeration, but I see where you're going. People can risk their lives for the most ridiculous things if they think it's worthwhile and if everyone else is doing it.

I also am pretty sure about the 72 virgins thing, though I may be wrong about that I don't know. I think a bunch of them do believe that, but I'll look it up and get back to you.

[Slade]

I don't think it's so much the faith itself as it is the particular popular interperitation of said faith. But since I've never read the Koran - wait, we're spelling it Quran - you know what I mean - I can't really make any broad sweeping generalizations about it. There could easily be just as much extremism in other faiths that doesn't get the same media coverage in the US. Doesn't China still occupy Tibet? I recall hearing somewhere that the Buddhists got violent over that.

The 72 virgins thing sounds absurd, either propaganda invented to cause distaste toward Islam, or one very bad translation that caught on due to absurdity.

[Vwing]

OK guys, I looked up a couple of sites about the virgins bit. Here you go.

www.straightdope.com/columns/011214.html

http://www.citizenso.../72virgins.html

So it isn't the case that only martyrs get the virgins, but the only way to get the virgins is to get to heaven, and Koran is quite specific that the only way to be certain of getting to heaven is to die in Jihad.

http://www.guardian....,631332,00.html

The above site actually has a very interesting line I'd like to draw your attention to.

While suicide is forbidden, martyrdom is everywhere praised, welcomed, and urged: "By the Being in Whose Hand is my life, I love that I should be killed in the way of Allah; then I should be brought back to life and be killed again in His way..."; "The Prophet said, 'Nobody who enters Paradise will ever like to return to this world even if he were offered everything, except the martyr who will desire to return to this world and be killed 10 times for the sake of the great honour that has been bestowed upon him'." [Sahih Muslim, chapters 781, 782, The Merit of Jihad and the Merit of Martyrdom.]

I also couldn't find anything that argued against it, so yeah, I think basically, though the number of virgins may differ, the idea of the many virgins with bountiful round breasts in paradise is true, and a good bet to get into heaven is to kill yourself in jihad agaisnt the enemy, become a "martyr."

I'll keep looking to see if something disproves it.

[Vwing]

Heh I almost feel like Hannibal but here's one more.

http://www.worldnetd...RTICLE_ID=24892

The boy's father, 54-year-old Hassan Hotari, reports Kelley, says he is "very happy and proud of what my son did and, frankly, am a bit jealous." Hotari's son was responsible for the June 1 terrorist bombing outside a disco in Tel Aviv – the worst such incident in four years. "I wish I had done it. My son has fulfilled the Prophet's (Mohammed's) wishes. He has become a hero! Tell me, what more could a father ask?"

Ah here's one from a Sunni Muslim woman that's very interesting, it basically denounces suicide bombing but is for the Palestinian cause.

http://www.mideastwe...m_martyrdom.htm

This post has been edited by Vwing: 13 November 2004 - 05:59 PM

[Slade]

Hmm... I think that if you're going to become a Martyr just for the get into heaven free card and for afterlife sex, then you should definately be stopped at the pearly gates and slapped a few times.

[Vwing]

Slade, what is "In the sleep of death, what dreams may come," from? I mean who said it? I've never heard the exp​ression, but I guess that was the inspiration for the movie "What Dreams May Come." Really good quote.

[J m HofMarN]

"there is more Islamic extremism than Christian extremism"

You're mad. Look at what that monstrosity in the white house is doing! He has killed more people than the terrorists and the Palestinian and Iraqi freedom fighters combined and he has repeatedly stated that he believes he is chosen by god to lead his country. THATS BLOODY CHRISTIAN EXTREMISM. And America allows it, mostly. The only difference is the forces of oppression are not willing to die for their cause, whereas the freedom fighters are.

I suppose you think that the civil rights movement was based upon Christianity rather than simple human desire for freedom?

I supposethat Lincoln freed the slaves because he was a Christian, and not because he didn't want people to suffer?

I suppose the Indians fought the invading Europeans to the death because their religion told them to?

Did the Vietnamese budhist faith tell them to fight to the death against imperialism or did they do it to protect their home?

"While suicide is forbidden, martyrdom is everywhere praised, welcomed, and urged"

You say nothing about suicide bombings or dying in battle. Martyrdom simply means dying for one's beliefs. Che Guevara, Jesus Christ, most of the Apostles, a good many saints, Huey Newton, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Sacco and Vanzetti. They all were martyrs and they were all called horrible names, such as radicals, terorists, etc.

Martyrdom means, commonly "to sacrifice for what one believes in" You are using a version of the Quran translated into a foreign language. Sure a very tiny minority of Islam's followers have overstretched the bounds of Martyrdom but a large majority of Christianity's followers think that all followers of other religions go to hell, and that Jesus hates fags.

However you are interpreting the translated version of the Quran so it might not be completely accurate. What I'm saying is that ANY religion would do the same thing under these circumstances and there are other people who have comitted suicide bombings. The Jews did it during WW2 under VERY SIMILIAR CIRCUMSTANCES TO THOSE THE MUSLIMS ARE UNDER TODAY. So yeah, you cant blame Islam alone anymore. You all have to admit that suicide bombinghs and the new Jyhadism are the direct product of American imperialism and Israeli genocide.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 13 November 2004 - 11:53 PM