[J m HofMarN]

Laura- Of course I wasn't refering to anyone in the forums. I was addressing the Christian groups who went out and got the signatures the have referendums on this issue.

[civilian_number_two]

I think if they can make it so that there is no legal difference between "Marriage" (Church + civil union) and "Civil union" alone, then who cares? Call it what you want. Of course this is 100% hypocritical: Britney's recent civil union was internationally reported as a "marriage" even though it lasted about 9 hours (I'm talking about the one about nine months ago). So apparently if you're straight, you get to call it "marriage" even if your "priest" is a redneck in an Elvis suit.

Sadly, that's not what this is. The move isn't to disallow gay civil unions form being called "marriages;" it's move to disallow gay civil unions altogether, while calling straight civil unions "marriages" and granting "married" status to straight people who just happen to live together for more than nine months in a given calendar year!

I appreciate what you're after Vwing. with the comparison of gay marriage issue and the issue of the war in Iraq. Fortunately, Bush is the asshole in both arguments, so you don't have to decide on a single issue. hell, if you're rather focus on abortion, you can vote democrat for that as well! But I wouldn't call this a minor issue. Ignoring from the specific question at play, the question raised is twofold:

1 ) To what extent do we surrender human rites to will of the majority? It that the purpose of democracy, that we should turn the country over to lynch mobs?

2 ) Is it even justifiable to allow legal decisions to be made based on Religion? (find three people with strong opinions against Gay Marriage who are NOT religious)

These are huge questions of the future of American Democracy, and they will probably mean more in the long run than some little war that for all they say, the Democrats probably would have waged on their own eventually.

[Vwing]

Well the fact is, I'm either going to have to get used to facing religion in my every day life (Bush and his administration are after getting rid of "the imaginary line between church and state" - and that's a real quote from someone in the administration) or I'm going to have to leave the country. I think it's very possible that if the country keeps going like this, we could have ourselves a theocracy. In a while, of course, but this certainly doesn't bode well.

Don't forget, Supreme Court will be 7-2, republicans control senate and house. So that means all three branches, which of course are supposed to be checks and balances, are controlled strongly by one party. You think gay marriage is a problem? Just wait. Interreligion marriages (and by interreligion I mean between 2 sects of Christianity, because all of the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Confuciansts, Hindus, etc. are either going to be dead or out of the country) will not be allowed, interracial marriages between a man and his slave will not be allowed, and instead of evolutionary theory, we will of course learn creationism and will pray every day in school.

It's funny, someone, I forget who, said "Canada does not have any law calling for the separation of church and state, yet they act like they do. We have it in our constitution, yet we act like we don't." Kim Campbell, former PM of Canada, said that if any candidate even mentioned religion, they'd be laughed out of office.

Actually it's not so funny. It's very, very scary. Where's John Wilkes Booth or Lee Harvey Oswald when you need him?

[Jane Sherwood]

I had a girl tell me today "You like Kerry so you are going to burn in hell. Kerry likes gay people, and gay is wrong. God will send you to hell. Judgement day is coming, and you're going to burn."

That's it.

Amber, I want you to get me this girl's name and address, and then I will find some way to travel down to Florida, find her, and deal with her good and proper! :angry:

...Or just get her screen name for me so that I can anonymously bitch at her and insult her and generally scare the hell out of her with my own stance against religion. If that's really how she talks and thinks, it shouldn't even take more than two sentences.


...This is all I can say right now. I'll jump into the real issue when my head's cleared up.

[SimeSublime]

John Kerry likes gay boys so I'll vote bush because being gay is wrong.

Perhaps you should have pointed out to her that the way she sleeps with her dad is actually much worse?

[Amber-Nicole]

Perhaps you should have pointed out to her that the way she sleeps with her dad is actually much worse?

(Sime)

[J m HofMarN]

Hmmm well I like Bush's stance on gay marriage so I guess I'll have to vote for him on that alone. Despite the fact that his other policies all seem to be oriented around

[FONT SIZE=7]KILLING US ALL!!![FONT SIZE=1]

Cuz man, I'll try to get through the nuclear holocaust he's going to instigate without a complaint but if I come out of my bunker to find a gay guy with two heads kissing another gay guy with a flipper for an arm I'm going to be pissed.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 04 November 2004 - 08:14 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Geez, I sure hope the all-wise, "don't make ignorant generalisations" Laura reads this thread... maybe she might see that there is some basis to my statements that there are a lot of bad people in the southern states of America.

Actually, then again, she will probably just say something about how this isn't concrete proof (which it isn't) and have another go at me.

Sorry - I'm still kind of pissed off at being called ignorant by a kid who hasn't even gone through university yet. Gone on, Laura. Give me another earful. I know you want to.



Back on the topic - I see this issue as denying human rights to a minority group for no good reason. Having gay people living together does not infringe on the quality of life of other people... therefore they have no reason to be against it.

Another problem I have with it is this notion that many Christian fundamentalists hold that being gay is some type of sin. What ridiculous nonsense. This would imply that people actively choose to be gay. With all the difficulties that gay people have faced, who would choose to be homosexual on purpose? These people are clearly born this way. There is no choice about it. They are following their natural desires. To deprive them of that for no good reason is just being spiteful.

The third problem is that this is setting yet another precedent in the changing face of American democracy. Already, America is losing its distinction between religion and state. Religious minority groups are being oppressed. Muslim people are discriminated against in many different ways, from being treated like crime suspects when they board airplanes to being deported from the country, like Cat Stevens was. Which brings me to the next precedent that has been set - the witchhunts. Do you remember McCarthy's communist witchhunts? George Bush has gone one better by terrorising anyone who doesn't agree with the way he runs the country. Oppose the war on Iraq? Then you're not patriotic and you're siding with the terrorists. And George's catchphrase he used at the start of his war on terror "You're either with us or against us." is as classic an 'us and them' slogan as they come.

Yes, I should probably post this in the "I Voted" thread... but I'm tired of Laura and Heccubus attacking me. Besides, it's relevant enough to the topic.

Four more years, people. I dread to think how screwed your country will be by the time the next election comes around... if they still have elections then.

[J m HofMarN]

I'm with you Movie Goer. All Americans are responsible for how their government behaves because this is (for hte moment) a democracy. Granted there are those who work tirelessly to unfuck this country (my meager efforts fail to fall under this category) but many just dont give a damn or support the insane policies of our neo-conservative fundamentalist regime. I see nothing wrong with being angry for this particularly since we dragged your native land into the hellhole that's become Iraq.

[Just your average movie goer]

Thanks mate. Actually, I'm beginning to think that maybe Korea's the safest place for me at the moment. With George W Bush's Australian finger puppet John Howard back for a 4th term (goddamn it), my own country will be probably be answering America's beckon call for the next few years.

[Chefelf]

Geez, I sure hope the all-wise, "don't make ignorant generalisations" Laura reads this thread... maybe she might see that there is some basis to my statements that there are a lot of bad people in the southern states of America.

There's some basis in everything. This is how racism and discriminations are born.

Jews love their money.
Blacks are good at sports but not very bright.
Asians are GREAT at math.
Hispanics are fiery lovers.

The problem with broad generalizations is that you can, through confirmation bias, support any sweeping generalization of any group. This is one of the most basic elements of human psychology.

1.) Someone thinks that all black people are on welfare.

2.) A black person comes into their store, buys something, pays with cash, leaves.

3.) A while person comes into their store, pays with food stamps, leaves.

4.) A black person comes into their store, pays with food stamps, leaves.

5.) Person says, "See! All black people are on welfare!"

It's all too easy to remember only the facts that support your theory and forget the facts that do not.

I could say that all Christians are terrible people because they ignore a woman's choice. Have Christians been involved in some terrible activities? You bet they have. However 90% of everyone I know is Christian. My own grandmother may be the most religious Catholic I know, however, even she is an extremely open-minded person who does not look down her nose at me and Jen for "living in sin".

So, in closing, you could say that all Southerners are idiots. But there are idiots everywhere and the South is not necessarily any more heavily populated with them. I know plenty of people up North that fit the typical dictionary definitiojn of the term "redneck". Amber-Nicole is not some anomaly, there are others like her, and sandwiched between them is a perfectly average sea of ignorance and idiocy that dilutes the entire World's population.

This is why some people in America think that all Iraqis/Muslims should be bombed and are terrorists.

This is why some people in Iraq and elsewhere think America is filled 100% with people who want them killed and discriminate against them.

The more people that start thinking with this "us and them" mentality, the worse off we all are.

[Just your average movie goer]

Well put, Chefelf. And I appreciate the fact that you gave an intelligent argument rather than Laura's brush-off "ignorant" line.

So, in closing, you could say that all Southerners are idiots. But there are idiots everywhere and the South is not necessarily any more heavily populated with them. I know plenty of people up North that fit the typical dictionary definitiojn of the term "redneck". Amber-Nicole is not some anomaly, there are others like her, and sandwiched between them is a perfectly average sea of ignorance and idiocy that dilutes the entire World's population.

I agree with most of that and I never said that all southerners were idiots. I still believe, however, that your gun lobbyists, wife beaters, bigots and racists are in a higher concentration there. This is my impression from all the information I have gathered through credible sources and the people I have met from that area of your country. I have met both the good and the bad. And from what I gathered, the southern states act as a sanctuary for pricks. They can survive there very well... that's why "the wanker from Arkansas" I mention occasionally went running back there when he discovered that Japan wasn't just a Japanese speaking copy of America. The good people I have met from there express frustration and talk about being discriminated against... pretty similar to Amber's experiences.

However, my original statement in the other thread wasn't a serious suggestion and I think it's strange that you guys reacted so strongly to a joke. Sure, it wasn't a good joke... but sometimes, I feel that having a laugh relieves some of the frustration when shit like this (George Bush being re-elected) happens.

Anyway, I appreciate the thoughtful reply and for the most part, I wholeheartedly agree.

[civilian_number_two]

I have a new theory: It all came out of this topic! It's pretty damned exciting too. My theory is that faux-superiority increases as you move north. At least, in the "New World" it does.

Consider:

American consider themselves superior to Mexicans. Mexicans, by ans large, consider their flimsy dictatorship superior to the banana republics of South America.

In the Northern United States, people of the Southern US are hicks. Canadians think of ALL Americans the way Yankees think of Johnny Reb.

Ask the Inuit what they think of "Canadians" and boy will you get an earful of "earth mother this" and "money can't be eaten" that.

And then the topper, the mother fucker that sells this argument: Santa Claus. That pretentious shit is lording it all over everyone. With all his wealth and power, he could have anything, but his only goal is to make us feel like bad parents. Once a year, doling out presents to the "worthy," like he has a right to decide, the fat fuck.

God, he makes me sick.


FOUR MORE YEARS!!!

[Chefelf]

That's my favorite post/theory ever!

[Emu]

Santa Claus for president! :-P

Why do people care, when we have issues like the environment, stem cells, and other big problems being put on the backburner?

That's a really good point....
Doesn't the Bible say stuff about not killing other people? So why are the people who are against gay marriage, who predominantly seem to be so because of their religious beliefs, all up in arms about this issue, of all things, where no one's getting hurt, but there's no activism on their part about crime, at least not any that gets publicised?