[Jordan]

Why has nobody really explained how the darkside nabs you? All we know is that fear leads to the darkside. Thats it. But why? And why do you go bad afterwards? DO you freak yourself out into a darkside corner? The movie has yet to explain this, and I doubt it ever will.

What about the lure of the power? Why is the darkside more powerful? Why can't some Jedi explain these elements? They seem very important to me. Much more than Boba's origins or Sifo Dias or just about anything we've seen. And why does this power make you evil? Is Lucas banking on "absolute power corrupts absolutely?" Can the darkside crush your feelings? I thought the Sith/Jedi was incontrol of the force, not the other way around.

You think the inner workings of the Darkside would be a central device since this is what our anti-hero struggles with and ultimatley falls to.

I think Anakin should have been evil from the start. A thug or huslter.

Feel free to discuss-

[Just your average movie goer]

I can't answer your question right now, Jordan, as I've gotta go to work in a few minutes. However, I can say that it would be impossible to make Anakin evil from the start - simply for the fact that we were told time and time again that he was a good man.

The only thing you could do to change that would be to make out that Obi Wan lied.


However, there was another reference to Anakin from a different character that was omitted from the film.

Barend brought up the fact that in that extra scene in Star Wars with Luke and Biggs talking to Red Leader, CGI DUDE walks across the camera and then suddenly everyone's in different positions... and he wondered what got cut.

I found out from my younger brother (can't provide the source however) but Red Leader said to Luke "If you're half the pilot your father was, you'll do alright."


Sure, it's not a comment about Anakin's personality. However, people usually don't say these things about people they don't like.

As an aside, it also brings up another interesting point - that Lucas must have originally intended for the Republic to have an army and that Red Leader and Luke's father were ex-pilots.


To tell you the truth, I've thought recently that the whole saga would work better if instead of Obi Wan telling the big lie, Darth Vader did... and he was not Luke's father. Just an idea for thought. You can start writing your harsh replies now.

[civilian_number_two]

I found out from my younger brother (can't provide the source however) but Red Leader said to Luke "If you're half the pilot your father was, you'll do alright."

BIGGS
Luke! I don't believe it! How'd you get here... are you going out with us?!

LUKE
Biggs! Of course, I'll be up there with you! Listen, have I got some stories to tell you...

Blue Leader, a rugged handsome man in his forties, comes up behind Luke and Biggs. He has the confident smile of a born leader.

BLUE LEADER
Are you... Luke Skywalker? Have you been checked out on the Incom T-65?

BIGGS
Sir, Luke is the best bushpilot in the outer rim territories.

Pilot Leader pats Luke on the back as they stop in front of
his fighter.

PILOT LEADER
I met your father once when I was just a boy, he was a great pilot. You'll do all right. If you've got half of your father's skill, you'll do better than all right.

LUKE
Thank you, sir. I'll try.

Luke makes a short bow from the waist as Blue Leader hurries to his own ship.

BIGGS
I've got to get aboard. Listen, you'll tell me your stories when we come back. All right?

LUKE
I told you I'd make it someday, Biggs.

BIGGS
(Going off)
You did, all right. It's going to be like old times Luke. We're a couple of shooting stars that'll never be stopped!

---------------------------

This is all the way to the revised fourth draft of the screenplay:


http://www.starwarz....h_draft_mar.htm

It never occured to me they might have filmed it. Makes sense, of course, since in Lucas's first plans Luke's father was still alive, in another part of the galaxy. this was meant to be a sort of introduction ot the character.

My opinion, Luke's father should be dead, and not in another part of the galaxy, or he should be Darth Vader. And since there's no point in a big reveal like that unless it has some effect, either Vader has to be telling the truth, or Luke has no way of knowing otherwise. Now, since Yoda is alive, Lucas didn't have any way of keeping Luke "in the dark," so it has to be true. So Vader = Luke's father, and we're in for a big ending, which ultimately Lucas didn't have the heart for.


What is the dark side? That's a good question. I suggest you visit my new topic in the Movie Theatre forum, for a partial answer:

The Best Thing Ever!

[Despondent]

"shooting stars" I'd forgotten about that.

but with the talk of Biggs, Dark beginnings and all, remember what this buddy-character's last name was? Wonder how his dad got THAT name?
(I'm sure we'll find out in May.)

[ernesttomlinson]

It's clear, isn't it? The Dark Side is that side of duct tape that doesn't have adhesive on it.

Seriously, I doubt very much whether Lucas thought the matter through at all. Stories of the Star Wars's sort require unquestionable villains and villains are far more dramatically interesting if they weren't always villains. (And, of course, there's some moral realism behind this. I'll never believe that anyone is born a tyrant and can't do anything about it.) Many of the best stories don't go into any detail about how their evil characters became evil because it's not necessary. Shane doesn't explain why Jack Palance is a cold-blooded murderer; Double Indemnity doesn't explain why Barbara Stanwyck is a compulsive double-crosser. No explanation is needed: we all know that people like that really exist and that's good enough for the story. Tolkien is often blamed for the pure good vs. pure evil pattern in much fantasy writing but I think he was cannier than that (discussion for another time.)

Note also that the original Star Wars doesn't say anything about the Dark Side really. Ben Kenobi tells Luke that Vader "turned to evil" but he doesn't go into details. It's The Empire Strikes Back that begins to pile on the Dark Side philosophy with Yoda's declarations and Vader's taunts ("now release your anger!") Perhaps this wasn't Lucas's idea entirely, seeing as how two other writers were largely responsible for the script. Perhaps it reflects Lucas's newly conceived fascination with tedious Joseph Campbell, who specialized in forcing all of literature and mythology onto the Procrustean bed of his schema of "archetypes". (q.v. http://www.salon.com...02/04/10/lucas/ and also G. K. Chesterton, see below.) Whatever the reason, Lucas didn't begin trying to rationalize the source of Vader's evil or the nature of the Force until ESB.

It was a mistake. The Force (and The Empire and The Republic) in Star Wars are explained hardly at all; by saying almost nothing about them, Lucas says everything that we need to know. Ben describes the Force after a fashion but the particulars are not important (and not that particular); all that matters is that it's the all-pervasive source of a Jedi's power and, as such, can't have a Light Side or a Dark Side any more than can the force of electrostatic attraction. It shouldn't be the Force that's "light" or "dark", good or evil; it should be rather the way in which the Force is used that is good or evil. The Empire Strikes Back spoils everything with Yoda's talk of different sorts of Force that flow differently while at the same time reiterating Ben's explanation of the Force's ubiquity ("life creates it, makes it grow...") So does the Dark Side of the Force bind the universe just as well as the Light Side does?

Some people may detect in this Light and Dark business a flavor of Christianity, but I see it as Zoroastrian or Manichaean rather. Insofar as I've come to any conclusions on the nature of good and evil, I see them as characteristic not of persons, objects, or nations, but of individual thoughts and actions that can cut one way or the other by virtue of something that St. Thomas Aquinas and I like to call "free will". In Zoroastrianism and Manichaeanism, however, everything in the universe is entirely divided between light and dark, not merely persons but even insensible or inanimate objects. (There were Light and Dark vegetables. Seriously.) In Manichaeanism, incidentally, and in Gnosticism too, matter is considered in and of itself a kind of corruption or pollution of the Light; hence Yoda, when he exclaims, "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!", unwittingly expounds a Manichaean principle.

Er, I've gone on far too long about this and I sort of lost track of the point I was trying to make.

P. S. What did Chesterton have to say about persons of Campbell's stripe? "The true origin of all the myths has been discovered much too often. There are too many keys to mythology, as there too many cryptograms in Shakespeare. Everything is phallic; everything is totemistic; everything is seed-time and harvest; everything is ghosts and grave-offerings; everything is the golden bough of sacrifice; everything is the sun and moon; everything is everything." That's from The Everlasting Man.)

[Helena]

How the Dark Side Works

This is how I always thought about it as well. It's a much better explanation than we ever get in the movies.

[Just your average movie goer]

Great site, Helena. Maybe someone should invite this girl on over to the forum. She's got a lot of interesting stuff to say.

[Jordan]

She has links to Chef's hate lists, all of them!

[Just your average movie goer]

You're right... and she's also got a link to 50 Reasons Why Jedi Sucks.

She's one cool girl!

[civilian_number_two]

That's a great post, ernesttomlinson.

[Despondent]

She also points to Chefelf's reasons in a newer post.

(and she's in a panel or two of my little offering...)







Point's- misplaced appostrophe edit

This post has been edited by Despondent: 22 October 2004 - 11:12 PM

[Jordan]

Note also that the original Star Wars doesn't say anything about the Dark Side really

Correct. There was zero explanation of what and how the darkside works. Fear is the only driving force that draws Jedi Knights into the darkside.

The PT has also gone out of it's way not to explain it one bit. But this should be the story, no?

[Despondent]

She's one cool girl!

She certainly is. I believe she's a member already.

She has a cameo
somewhere on this forum.

[Jordan]

Force that's "light" or "dark", good or evil; it should be rather the way in which the Force is used that is good or evil

That is precisely what I want to believe. The idea of the dark side having a mind of it's own and possessing you is lame. The Darkside did not corrupt Vader. Vader allowed himself to be corrupt, and as a result, abused his Jedi powers.


Prior to the PT, I thought that anyone could be a JEDI. The force is in everything, or so Ben told us. I just assumed that Jedi knights had the will, disipline, and mental/physical strength to control it in such a manner that they could become Jedi.

It would not make them elite, just above average, since any one could give a shot at being a Jedi. LIke Navy Seals or Pro Wrestlers. Anyone can give it a shot, but not many make it.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 25 October 2004 - 01:25 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

I agree with that, although clearly some people would make better Jedi than others. But certainly people didn't need a high midi-chlorian count to be a Jedi.

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Oct 22 2004, 08:13 PM)
She's one cool girl!


She certainly is. I believe she's a member already.

She has a cameo
somewhere on this forum.

It sounds like you know her, Despondent. I'm just wondering who she is because I'm curious.

So Darth Sheba, if you're reading this, why don't you stop by and say "Hi" sometime?