[Amber-Nicole]

Just moving the Buffy discussion that started in the sibling thread here. Yay Buffy fans!

[civilian_number_two]

Yeah, I'll get in on this one.

I agree with Supes regarding the issue of Spike with soul. The writers felt it was sufficient to have him blubber around for a bit in the school basement, and after that, all's well. He's exactly the same guy, he feels no guilt, and he doesn't have any trace of the poetry-writing shyboy that he used to be.

I'll meet them halfway in saying that Spike changed over the years. The same with Angel, who lost that horribly-contrived Irish accent, learned a bunch of languages and loads about various ddemons, and who now never seems to drink ... wine, Spike gained confidence with power. And maybe there's something we have to read in, that William, unsuccessful with women and frankly a little creepy, may not have had much of a problem with sudden power, murder and immortality.

But yeah, Spike in general has been for me one of those transparent characters, one where you can see the writing at work. Angel's gone, and we want another character like that. So let's have a microchip in Spike's head that keeps him from doing harm. And for no good reason, Buffy won't kill him in this state. Then later we'll have it so the microchip is very precise, and what it is is he can be violent, but he can only hurt bad guys. Voila; instant grudging hero. Then later, when that gets boring, we return his soul remove the chip, and he's Angel, but with more edge.

It's all seemed to me case of the writers giving Spike more to do just because Spike was a character popular with the fans. The cost of using Spike in this way has been a season and a half of Riley, that dumb Adam demon, and well, everthing to do with the Initiative. I'd rather they'd tried something else.

As for Buffy boyfriends, I liked Angel, but hated to watch any of the relationship stuff because of the way they wrote Buffy in them. She was always so high drama. My favorite episode for this was "The Zeppo," the comedy episode with Xander. I loved the bit where he walked into Angel's pad and he and Buffy were in the middle of a typically high-drama romantic argument. I like it when the writers make fun of themselves.

Shifting gears, I like Oz as well, but his presence was making Xander obsolete, so he had to go. There's really only room for one "normal" in a superhero story, which is why you often got Lois Lane OR Jimmy Olson, but seldom both of them at the same time. All of the others in the gang have some special talent or knowledge, so Xander gets to be the dumb normal guy that grounds the whole thing. Oz was too cool about it, and was making Xander extraneous. So even if the actor hadn't wanted to try out the movies, he probably wouldn't have been good for the show.

Tara was great (fantastic singing voice), but I like the new girl more for Willow.

I have not been enjoying Spike on Angel. I very much wanted that prophecy to be about Spike, so that Angel could be all pissy, and then Spike could be a human on Angel, which would be interesting. This business with the two vampires and they're always arguing and Angel hates Spike and won't acknowledge his goodness is so ... yawn. I also don't much like the idea of guest appearances unless the writers can make some sense of them. Will Buffy just show up and then leave in one or two days? Why? For ratings? Does Willow run off to LA to meet a bunch of people she hardly knows? Generally the crossover episodes have sucked, except for the one where Angel got to be human again. Don't know why he doesn't use the resources of Wolfram and Hart to get more of that demon blood. That would clean up this "Two vampire" problem, and he could opt to use it himself or to get Spike out of the way.

[Amber-Nicole]

You would have to be a girl to understand. Spike is just...damn sexy.


Anyway, you would get a big, long, in-depth response out of me, but I am currently watching season 5 on my DvD rom in my computer. I'm on episode "Fool for Love." So...I will go to that now. Mmm Spike.

[Supes]

You would have to be a girl to understand. Spike is just...damn sexy.

I'll agree with this. As a guy I much preferred the evil Spike. He was just damn good fun. I heard Joss mention on the DVD set that contains Spike and Drusilla's first appearances that they were supposed to be killed at the end of the season like all good bad guys. But their popularity was so high with the audience that they were kept alive.

This kind of makes sense of what Mike was saying about the writers having to find something for Spike to do due to this popularity.

Agree also that the whole Initiative story line should have been killed. I was a little turned off the series during this run. I didn't mind Adam as a bad guy, particularly given the way it was required that not just the Slayer could complete the task of killing him. What bugged me after that was their inability to remember the lessons learned in this series as characters. It just seemed like every few episodes they had to remind each other that they needed each other and couldn't do it alone. This theme continued right into the end of the run.

We don't have the new season of Angel here yet so have to reserve judgement on the return of Spike. I also wont ask the question, "Didn't Spike die at the end of Buffy?"

[Amber-Nicole]

He did die at the end of Buffy. Except for.... he didn't. But I won't explain unless you want to know, don't want to thorw any spoilers on you.

[civilian_number_two]

I know you're not asking the question, but yeah. One set of writers found a great way to kill his character, and then another set found a lame way to bring him back. I won't say what I would have preferred, since doing so involves spoilers.

I watched MISS MATCH last night (I know, I know). Charisma Carenter was on, playing a character not unlike what Cordelia might have become had her move to LA proved succesful. Shallow, rich, indifferent (until a typically silly late-story Scroogean change of heart). So maybe good news for ANGEL fans; she's weaning herself back on to tv.

MISS MATCH for any unaware is a pretty trivial romantic comedy where Alicia Silverstone is a lawyer by day and a professional matchmaker by night. It's mostly about the matchmaking of course, and all of her clients are disgustingly rich. It seems to have been made by the same production company as BUFFY, since Alicia is clearly living in the Summers home, but maybe after the TRADING SPACES people came in on a special big budget episode. And now the house is supposed to be in the valley. Add to which many of the featured extras have been on BUFFY and ANGEL, so people into that sort of thing may like it for that.

[Amber-Nicole]

I hope she shows on Angel for atleast a few episodes. I miss Cordy.

[Supes]

Thanks for being considerate guys and girls. It is much appreciated. However, as I don't have cable it will be a while before I actually get to see Angel so am happy to hear what has transpired to bring back Spike. I will not likely stop me from watching the episodes when they air as I will still watch to judge for myself

[civilian_number_two]

Well you asked for it.

A package came in the mail, and Angel opened it. Out fell the medallion he gave to Buffy at the end of season seven, and which Spike wore durign the finale, when apparently he chanelled the power of his sould into energy and sunned out all the uber-vamps. So the medallion spills out and wham! Spike's back, with no more ceremony than the way they introduced Dawn in Buffy season five, only that turned out to be aclever gimmick while, so far, in my opinion, Spike's presence has been lame and silly.

For one thing, he started out as a ghost, so hijinks of the walking-through-wall kind, then later he learned how to concentrrate and pick up things and be semi-solid. Then when that got boring (actually a little after it got boring), they made him full vampire again, and he and Angel got to fight. There's a long plot associated with it, and it involves the senior partners of Wlfram and Hart, a new (really cute) girl and another guy presumed dead, but I stopped holding my breath. This storyline is not so compelling as last season's nailbiting Jasmine plot, and if it doesn't get better soon I'll --- well I'll keep watching, but I'll have reservations.

It's like someone stole Joss's popular character, resurrected him for ratings, and now doesn't know what to do with him.

Me too with the missing Cordy, but Fred's stepped up as the sexy girl while the cat's been away. Dressing better, hair all stylish curls --- good move.

PS: Really excellent moment not long back with Wesley, but specific plot spoliers I will not reveal.
Plus Harmony has returned as a recurring guest star, and that's sorta fun with Spike but should be big fun when Cordy's back from maternity leave.

[Supes]

Thanks! I'll look out for the return of Angel and see if I share your views. From what Amber-Nicole has said she appears to be enjoying the new series so I'm more than happy to just let it happen...so to speak.

[Amber-Nicole]

I've actually really enjoyed the return of Spike.

Here's a thought. Wasn't that guy at the end of the last episode Lindsey? They didn't show him long, and my mind didn't have time to register, but I really think that was him.

[civilian_number_two]

I'd rather not entertain specific spoilers while there are people here getting the episodes a season late.

But while we're doing it (yes that was Lindsey), Cordelia is set to return in the 100th episode. That's four weeks away. In finding this out, I read the one-liner about this week's (episode 5-9, or 97), and it seems like it'll be a comedy episode. No word on whether Cordelia will be back for good when she returns, but I expect her to be upset by what Angel's been doing, and with whom, since she's been away.

Finiched seaon five last night. Feel like I really plowed through it, and now I'm disappointed not to have more Buffy to watch. It turns out I'd only seen four episodes before, and barely remembered them, so it was good to watch them again in context. But now they're over, I have to wait until May to buy season six. Grr.

[Amber-Nicole]

I agree. I went through the entire season in 2 days. Good memories. That finale was really great. I would have to say my favorite episodes of 5 were the last couple, say the last 3 or 4. I liked the scene where Buffy pretended to be the Buffy bot in Spike's lair. And I really enjoyed Glory as a villian. Nice to have a break from the big slimy icky looking monsters.

[Supes]

I'd rather not entertain specific spoilers while there are people here getting the episodes a season late.

Seriously Mike, feel free to engage in full disclosure discussion. If you held back these discussions for those of us that are behind in viewing schedules we would be constantly talking about full season old episodes (new to me, but old news to you).

This is a forum after all and you need to expect that if you go into a discussion group knowing that you are a season behind that you might be exposed to stuff you have yet to see. I personally don't mind and I really don't think anyone else should either. If they don't want to know then don't read. I think simply prefacing a post with "Spoilers" is enough to let people make up their own mind.

[Amber-Nicole]

Spoilers! Well let's see...here's one for ya. Don't think it's been mentioned. Gunn had Wolfram & Hart perform a procedure on him that filled his mind with all knowledge of the law. It's pretty nifty, he did this really cool scene in the courtroom where he got a demon a mistrial.