[Vwing]

Something stinks in Star Wars and its not just the bad dialogue.

First of all, the OT does not have bad dialogue, it has moments of corny dialogue, but it never really has out-and-out bad dialogue (unlike the prequels)

Second of all, NOTHING stinks in SW except for people who can't take it as a goddamn movie. I can't believe I'm even discussing Himmler in a conversation about SW. How the hell did that even come up?

[Hannibal]

"They're called ROMANTICIZATIONS. They're not meant to mirror reality, they simplify whatever worlds they portray or whatever messages they portray into things that if analyzed are shown as ridiculous."


Right, don't analyze these films, just what the nazi spin doctors wanted, just look at the surface and enjoy it, don't ask why Jews are compared to rats...


" We like them because they're GOOD MOVIES."

I'm laughing only on the outside...


" The rebels are fighting for a democratic government, hell, even if the prequels they're government is exactly like ours ."

Yeah I voted for a queen last election not George Bush, and I wanted a Queen for president dammit, but instead we got a monkey...





"Sure Star Wars is simple. But the main messages are that good wins out over evil. When the Death Star explodes, it represents evil being destroyed, and though millions of people die, in our minds, they really don't, because it is just a fairy tale, a simple tale of good vs. evil, and the Death Star exploding just means the good guys win. "

Rightie-o...we don't see them as people, thats the whole point, and the point of having mass murder of clones, robot armies as opponants, etc, DEHUMANIZATION while mass violence is taking place on screen. believe me, I know how you feel, you like the exploding death star, you want to see mass numbers of villains die horrible deaths...



"Any story like that if overanalyzed is bound to be considered bad, but the point is IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE OVERANALYZED! That's why they call it OVERanalyzing. So please, just stop this now."


No. I will not. People here analyze, they analyze what they observed about what they didn't like in the new DVDs, what they saw in star wars that made them think about x,y or z. Don't ever tell me NOT to do anything. Ever.

You don't like the comparisons because they scare you, and make you think and force you to re-evaluate your ideas about Star Wars...

I understand.

Its logical, and rational discourse and if you can't handle it, then go to a forum where they analyze how the physics of the millenium falcon works, or how many handmaidens Lady Amidala has, or how many hairs on a wookiee.

Or leave forums altogether if you cannot discuss anything. Why waste your time on ANY forum, if you can't handle analysis. You simple don't like my analysis, and well, that's unfortunate, but it certainly does not mean I shout cease discussing my ideas.

There is a wellspring of comparisons of Star Wars to fascism, nazism and the ideas of Heinrich Himmler, and I shall continue to issue forth these comparsons because there is so many. You might not like it, you might hate the idea that Lucas, intentional or unintentional is churning out neofascism...sorry.

[HK 47]

AHAHAHAHA!!!! Insanity is all too common among essay writing forum posters these days...

[Vwing]

I'm seriously speechless. Well, actually I am speechless, since I'm typing and not talking, but the exp​ression still applies.

And what I said still applies as well. There is a difference between analyzing and OVERanalyzing. Analyzing is what I've been doing in this forum for a year, while you've been doing it for 15 posts or so, so don't tell me to leave a fuckin forum because you come here with your ideas and too big words that this here head can't understand cause it just be powerful small. Don't patronize me, you ask anyone here, many who may or may not agree with you, and they'll echo my sentiments.

Up top you said Godfather was one of the greatest movies of all time. I'm not contradicting that. But you did, when you said that romanticizations are what "the Nazi spin doctors would have wanted".

And they have a queen, but she is an elected official. So therefore we see the STUPIDITY of the prequels, but again, not the inherent evil in it. The only thing you've said that I agree with is that George Bush is, at best, a monkey.

And come on. Do you seriously think George Lucas even knows what fascism is? He didn't know what a light year was when he was still a good filmmaker, so how can you expect him to grasp the concept of fascism when he's a bad one?

And discussion is healthy. But this isn't a discussion right now, what you're doing. What you're doing is ranting and raving like Hitler on a goddamn soapbox, since you love comparing things to the Holocaust so much. I love a good discussion. David Brin wrote an article on what he felt were the evils of Star Wars, and I had a very nice email discussion with him showing why I disagreed with him. Neither of us changed our opinions, but we were both respectful and both enjoyed the debate. I don't enjoy getting insulted, or having 5 posts at a time chronicling the policies of Himmler with little offhand comments by you at the end. I don't enjoy one small post I make getting ripped apart and used by you for a psychoanalysis of me.

So discuss away. But stop the rant, and stop the insults. No one here appreciates that.

And I apologize to people here if I got a little angry. I think, Hannibal, that you're the first poster in 1 year of me being in this forum who has actually gotten my blood running. Even Civ hasn't managed that (as of yet). So congratulations.

[Vwing]

And I can't believe it was possible to start so many paragraphs with the word 'and'. That must be a record for one post.

[HK 47]

What you're doing is ranting and raving like Hitler on a goddamn soapbox, since you love comparing things to the Holocaust so much.

That's exactly how I felt about it. Look VWing, this guy has a screw loose, let it go.

[Hannibal]

I'm seriously speechless. Well, actually I am speechless, since I'm typing and not talking, but the exp​ression still applies.

And what I said still applies as well. There is a difference between analyzing and OVERanalyzing. Analyzing is what I've been doing in this forum for a year, while you've been doing it for 15 posts or so, so don't tell me to leave a fuckin forum because you come here with your ideas and too big words that this here head can't understand cause it just be powerful small. Don't patronize me, you ask anyone here, many who may or may not agree with you, and they'll echo my sentiments.

Up top you said Godfather was one of the greatest movies of all time. I'm not contradicting that. But you did, when you said that romanticizations are what "the Nazi spin doctors would have wanted".

And they have a queen, but she is an elected official. So therefore we see the STUPIDITY of the prequels, but again, not the inherent evil in it. The only thing you've said that I agree with is that George Bush is, at best, a monkey.

And come on. Do you seriously think George Lucas even knows what fascism is? He didn't know what a light year was when he was still a good filmmaker, so how can you expect him to grasp the concept of fascism when he's a bad one?

And discussion is healthy. But this isn't a discussion right now, what you're doing. What you're doing is ranting and raving like Hitler on a goddamn soapbox, since you love comparing things to the Holocaust so much. I love a good discussion. David Brin wrote an article on what he felt were the evils of Star Wars, and I had a very nice email discussion with him showing why I disagreed with him. Neither of us changed our opinions, but we were both respectful and both enjoyed the debate. I don't enjoy getting insulted, or having 5 posts at a time chronicling the policies of Himmler with little offhand comments by you at the end. I don't enjoy one small post I make getting ripped apart and used by you for a psychoanalysis of me.

So discuss away. But stop the rant, and stop the insults. No one here appreciates that.

And I apologize to people here if I got a little angry. I think, Hannibal, that you're the first poster in 1 year of me being in this forum who has actually gotten my blood running. Even Civ hasn't managed that (as of yet). So congratulations.

" so don't tell me to leave a fuckin forum because you come here with your ideas and too big words that this here head can't understand cause it just be powerful small. "

I didn't tell you to leave the "f-ing" forum. I didn't tell you to F-ing do anything. You specifically stated to me that i need to stop saying what I'm saying. Too bad. So I suggested that if you don't like discussions than stop going to forums. Don't get all bent out of shape and start swearing, it doesn't help your cause.


"Don't patronize me, you ask anyone here, many who may or may not agree with you, and they'll echo my sentiments. "

Easy to say, very easy to say, but if they echo your statements, well...they echo your statements. Should I be cast out for expressing opinions...certainly not. You're the only one totally upset about what I said. if you don't like it, explain why, instead of telling me to cease my discussion.





"Up top you said Godfather was one of the greatest movies of all time. "

You need to be careful about what you're posting now, I never even mentioned the Godfather in ANY post, so here you are either mistaking me for someone else or lying.


"I'm not contradicting that. But you did, when you said that romanticizations are what "the Nazi spin doctors would have wanted". "

So this above statement is useless, since I never even mentioned ANYTHING about the GODFATHER.

"And come on. Do you seriously think George Lucas even knows what fascism is?"


Finally a good point. But its still worth discussing, it could very well be that Lucas is a complete moron and that even though he is a fascist, he doesn't know it.



"And discussion is healthy. But this isn't a discussion right now, what you're doing."

No it is YOU who are upset, YOU who are not addressing anything, YOU who is swearing and telling me to shut up. It is you who need to either ignore what I'm saying or address it if you are interested.




" What you're doing is ranting and raving like Hitler on a goddamn soapbox, since you love comparing things to the Holocaust so much. "

Not quite. The ranting and raving is all you, and its nothing like Hitler, its more like Michael Savage or Bill O'Reilly or some talkshow host.


"David Brin wrote an article on what he felt were the evils of Star Wars, and I had a very nice email discussion with him showing why I disagreed with him."

So what seems to be the trouble now? Because you decided to instantly dismiss everything I have posted because you didn't like it? Who cares!



" I don't enjoy getting insulted, or having 5 posts at a time chronicling the policies of Himmler with little offhand comments by you at the end. "

Insults? What insults? Offhand comments? What offhand comments you're the one making the effort to type F-words here and tell me I'm crazy and insane and I shouldn't post here. Either disagree and post why, ignore me and move on, or type something of some protest and move on. Grow up.


"I don't enjoy one small post I make getting ripped apart and used by you for a psychoanalysis of me. "

Yikes. A psychoanalysis? Are you paranoid? Get a grip. If you posted a bunch of nonsense telling me that everything I expressed is of no value and completely insane without explaining why, then what do you expect? Try to dismiss it without looking at the facts and joining the discussion by telling me I have no right to say what I'm saying, come on now.

"So discuss away. But stop the rant, and stop the insults. No one here appreciates that."


You need to go back and read your own posts buddy, there's no insults in mine, and I don't appreciate it, you're right. If you have something intelligent to say then say it. Its commonplace for a number of people posting to dismiss anything they read by saying its crazy, and insult, discredit and intimidate the person posting, I see it all the time man, you're not the first.



"And I apologize to people here if I got a little angry. I think, Hannibal, that you're the first poster in 1 year of me being in this forum who has actually gotten my blood running. Even Civ hasn't managed that (as of yet). So congratulations. "

Sorry, but instead of getting all huffy, maybe you should have read what I posted, I'm obviously not the only one saying what I'm saying, and I'm not trolling. This entire post relates fully to the original post way up at the top and several in between. I elaborated on the premise that people pointed out in Star Wars which upset them, that Vader was rediculously redeemed, and the violence in Star Wars is all about political vagueries and frighteningly sterile. I am not the only in history to point out such filmmaking qualities and relate them to propaganda created by Hitler and others. I elaborated further on how closely the Jedi resemble Himmler's dream of the New SS Knights Templar, and how scary it is. It may not be intentional AS I HAVE ALSO stated, but if unconscious on the part of Lucas, it is indeed frightening and may explain the feelings of disgust expressed by several posters within this thread.

You can accuse me all you want of trolling, flaming, etc, but you know it isn't true.

On with the discussion now.

I'm not going to shut up because a couple hecklers tell me that the intelligent and well explained posts that I have put forth are something that they don't agree with, calling me Hitler and so on and so forth.

I know how it works people, so on with it.

[Vwing]

Ah excuse me, the Godfather point was my mistake. That's actually why I jumped on you when you said the thing about romanticizations, but you had actually posted right after the post I was thinking of, and I lumped you in with that. For that I apologize.

But you know what's funny Hannibal? Just before I came here and read this, I was going to post something in another forum where someone had asked you to leave. And I was going to defend you, was going to say that the points you bring up are very interesting, you just need to learn not to go ranting on and you'll be a good addition to the forum. I really was. Then I decided to wait and see what you had to say in response to me, to see if you could be the big man first. You couldn't.

I never once told you to leave the forum. I told you to stop ranting like this. I can see how you took when I said stop this now to mean stop discussing this, but it didn't actually. It really just meant stop discussing it like you're doing. I apologize for that as well, I never meant for you to take it as for you to leave the forum.

I swore once, and it wasn't even directed at you. I don't curse too much, if you want to check on that read my other posts. And this was a curse of frustration and anger, not hate. I've gotta say though, I could very easily, very easily curse you off right now.

In addition, I said "this isn't a discussion, what you're doing now", and you respond by saying, "No it is YOU who are upset, YOU who are not addressing anything, YOU who is swearing and telling me to shut up. It is you who need to either ignore what I'm saying or address it if you are interested." WHAT? It reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Lisa and Bart are arguing about something, and when Lisa resigns herself to the fact that it is a pointless argument by sighing and telling him to forget it, Bart says "No, YOU shut up!" Plus, that was said very calmly, without any curse words (and again, I used one curse word in the post and it wasn't at you, so to say I am cursing, meaning more than once, is a bit of a stretch), and I NEVER told you to shut up.

The comment about David Brin was to show you that I am not disregarding your IDEAS, I am against the way you are EXPRESSING those ideas. I was showing that I am quite capable of discussing an issue like this with civility, patience, and respect. I was showing that obviously, if I can handle that, then there must have been something ELSE in your post, other than its content, that I didn't like. That was the way it was presented, which made Bill O' Reiley look tame, and was much closer to Hitler (though agian, EXAGGERATION!) than it was to O' Reiley. Even Ann Coulter would think it was a bit much.

Oh, and you want to know where you insulted me, psychoanalyzed me (and come on, it's an exaggeration, the point is you judged my character from one post I made), and basically painted me a fool? Here you go.

"You don't like the comparisons because they scare you, and make you think and force you to re-evaluate your ideas about Star Wars...

I understand.

Its logical, and rational discourse and if you can't handle it, then go to a forum where they analyze how the physics of the millenium falcon works, or how many handmaidens Lady Amidala has, or how many hairs on a wookiee.

Or leave forums altogether if you cannot discuss anything. Why waste your time on ANY forum, if you can't handle analysis. You simple don't like my analysis, and well, that's unfortunate, but it certainly does not mean I shout cease discussing my ideas."

Now come on. You never cursed me off, but the tone of that post is more insulting than any curse could be. That was the insult I was referring to.

So now I don't know what to do. Maybe you're having a bad night, something you need to take out on the computer where it really can't hurt anyone in a way you would see. I don't know. But the insulting tone, the superiority complex, the rantings, this all DOES have to stop now. I'm not telling you to shut up here. I'm telling you to control what you say. Because if it doesn't stop, then I honestly don't know how much longer you'll be here.

This post has been edited by Vwing: 30 October 2004 - 10:55 PM

[Hannibal]

It pretty much sounds to me like you're still upset you couldn't scoff me off, intimidate me and threaten me away as easily as you probably normally can. I've been here before. If you have anything to say about as far as having me removed, it wouldn't be the first time somebody who could dish it out and couldn't take it (without me having to use threats, insults or deliberate back and forth "Oh I was only exaggerating in that last post" backtracking at all toward you or anybody) decided to use whatever power they have to shamelessely act and remove the person of their hatred.

Do it. If you have that power.

Do it and feel good about yourself--if thats what kind of person you are. I have been removed for far less. These days politically speaking, or going against the grain on any issue is liable to piss somebody off, and if they happen to have a little power...there it is again.

So you're pissed. Sorry. You didn't address my specific points or questions and you are right about one thing, this is rediculous. You are the only one upset here, not me, and if you can have me removed--for this, what can I say, I feel sorry for you.

You call my posts Hitler-like and make accusations and then backtrack...come on.

Nobody has had a chance yet to adress my posts other than you and another person, and so it appears in your logic, maybe, I should be dismissed, maybe I should be removed, maybe its that easy.

All I can say, is that its sad.

Let the discussion of this thread--the one of the original post--carry on, unless its deleted, of course. Why it would be, I couldn't rationally say , but its certainly possible.

[Vwing]

As I usually do? Intimidate people as I usually do? Again Hannibal, READ MY OTHER POSTS! I don't think I've EVER used intimidation. And I didn't here. I was pissed, but when did I ever try to intimidate you?

And it's really perfect. Me responding is actually making you win, but it really is perfect. I respond to you kindly yet authoritatively, didn't curse, didn't say anything mean, defended myself against your accusations (and we are discussing that here, for the moment no one gives a shit - oh no, I've cursed, I must be insane with anger! - about Himmler or anything else, right now we're just discussing attitude and tone of posts), and gave you a chance to say "Listen, I'm sorry, let's continue with the discussion". But NOO. You can't give in. Because that means you lose. And you couldn't stand to lose.

You didn't think my Hitler posts were exaggerations? No, I actually do think you are exactly like Hitler, in fact, I think you mean to commit genocide on every Star Wars fan because they're fascists, just like Hitler would have. WHAT??? If you actually thought I meant that, you have to get your sarcasm sense up and working, it's obviously broken.

I am going to ask to get you banned. I don't have the power to do so myself, but I'm sure that with the support of several other members you will be. Let that stroke your ego, that we're simple-minded folk who just can't stand your arguments. I'll let it stand at that. You didn't help by saying that you've been booted out of many other forums for less. I can certainly imagine, cause you know what, 1/10 of what you're doing right now would be too much.

So that's it. I give up. I hope your ego is just really pumped right now, I hope you're proud you've bested a 15 year old kid who came on a forum to discuss, and yes, analyze things related to Star Wars. You win. The prize? A one-way ticket outta here. Enjoy.

[Hannibal]

"I am going to ask to get you banned. I don't have the power to do so myself, but I'm sure that with the support of several other members you will be."

Thats what I would call a threat, and intimidation.

"So that's it. I give up. I hope your ego is just really pumped right now, I hope you're proud you've bested a 15 year old kid who came on a forum to discuss, and yes, analyze things related to Star Wars. You win. The prize? A one-way ticket outta here. Enjoy."

As your rant began with your first post, so it ends, with a threat, telling me to leave and all because you didn't like what i was saying, NOT because I insulted you, NOT because I threatened you, NOT because I told you to shut up, but CLEARLY because you don't like what I am saying. Ego has been defined. (So has Hitler-like as well).

The Truth is that its truly unfortunate. Lets hope the admistrators have a keen eye, which in the case of the guy who made this forum, I suspect he does, after all, he made that great list of 78 Reasons regarding Episode I.

[Vwing]

Jesus Christ are you so thick you don't get it? And I will use caps here, just to get my point across.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT HIMMLER OR THE KNIGHTS TEMPLAR OR ANY OF THE CONTENT OF YOUR POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Has nothing I have said here sunk in? I would think at the very least you would realize that if had you continued productively with the discussion, if you had apologized, been the bigger man, then I would have said fine? Do you realize that again, what I've been saying all along, all I care about is the way you are presenting your facts? I mean, I don't believe this! I just don't! HK-47 was right, I should've let it go. I wanted to try to get through to you, to on some level connect. I shouldn't have. That was a mistake. That mistake fueled this.

Again, I apologize to all forum members reading this. You know what, if, as Hannibal said, I really am the antagonist here, if I really am the one being unreasonable, then I will accept due punishment for disturbing the peace of the forum. Sorry guys. This must be like 1000 times worse than the religion debate, and that's hard to do.

[Hannibal]

Forum Rules:

"Star Wars is a very sensitive topic. I have gotten hundreds and hundreds of emails from people that have read my articles. A lot of them are very intelligently written (either agreements or disagreements). A lot of them are also very poorly constructed "arguments" that spend more time criticizing my character and//or sexual preference rather than addressing the actual topic of Star Wars.

So if you want to post on this forum please do not post anything vulgar slamming anyone as a person. Swearing happens, but try to keep the discussion about actual issues rather than just using offensive language. Responding to someone that you don't agree with by saying something like: "You're a pussy". Does not strengthen any argument. If anything it works against you.

Please follow these rules if you wish to post on this forum. Thank you."


Try to keep posting about actual issues rather than offensive language.

Responding to someone that you don't agree with by saying something like: "You're a pussy". Does not strengthen any argument. If anything it works against you.

In your case, "crazy" "hitler-like" and the other phrases, once again, do not help your argument, either present your case or ...re-read the rules.

[Vwing]

You know I just realized I've wasted the whole night arguing with you. I can't believe it. I meant to watch Gattaca on tape, I mean it's on tape so it's not going anywhere, but I wanted to sit down and watch it, among other things.

I'm not even going to defend myself anymore. It's pointless. Anything I say will be twisted by you into being some unholy, terribly disgusting thing. LIKE I SAID IN MY LAST POST, if my view is in fact distorted and I am the antagonist then I will let Chef deal with me however he likes, and I will formally apologize to you. I'm serious about this. In fact, I invite members of this forum to reply to this and tell me if they think I am the cause of this, I would love to hear what you guys think, since I've loved hearing what you've thought for the past year. If I was bad, I will step down and apologize. If not, then I would hope that Hannibal steps down and apologizes as well.

And again, read my posts. All of them. It's only 20 pages, and my posts usually aren't that long. I don't think I've EVER, in one year and 480 or so posts, been disrespectful to anyone until you came along. Read them. Don't respond to me UNTIL you've read them. Get a basis for my character. Analyze the situation. Analyze what I have said in the past year. Put it all together, and then relate it to this topic. I'm curious what you find.

This post has been edited by Vwing: 31 October 2004 - 12:03 AM

[Hannibal]

What is truly frightening is, what if i had posted that George Lucas was following Heinrich Himmler's philosophy as a good thing? Now that would have been offensive.