[Jordan]

.  I was always taught that if you committed suicide, you went straight to hell because you didn't give God a chance to forgive you if you were dead.

That is a catholic saying. According to the bible the only sin that cannot be redeemed is not accepting christ. If a Christian kills his/her self I don't think it would warrent hell by the bible. It just means your walk with God was not very close.

That's how I see it.

Once you've accepted christ, he has forgiven you. If that was not the case then you'd have to be verbally asking for redemption every second. What if you lost your temper and hit a man, then shortly after were hit by a bus?

This post has been edited by Jordan: 22 October 2004 - 08:18 PM

[Vwing]

Well, and correct me if I'm wrong, for I have very little knowledge of the bible, wouldn't you go to hell? Isn't that what confessional is for? I'm sure it wouldn't be as bad a hell, but it would be hell, or at least a couple thousand years in purgatory. But again I don't know.

A few years ago, there was this report on 20/20 or some news show like that (could've been 60 minutes) where they did a story about a woman who literally thought about God 24/7. When she would go to work (I believe that she was a teacher or someone who dealt personally with other people) she would pretend to wipe her forehead when what she really was doing was crossing herself. When she got up, she would pray for about an hour, continue crossing herself through the day and asking God for forgiveness. This woman was so scared of going to hell that she did everything possible to avoid it and appease the fire-and-brimstone God she had been brought up on, basically wasting her life doing that. I just found that so sad and so disgusting. The ironic thing, I thought, was that she was a very fat woman, and that since gluttony is a sin, wouldn't she be going to hell for that, assuming it wasn't glandular? But I really just got sick watching that.

[WalrusOfPlastic]

Many people pussy out and say they are "agnostic" which is basically saying you are atheist but you want people to like you.

I've heard that a couple times now and I'll have to disagree. Although I usually like to avoid labels I do sometimes refer to myself as an Agnostic. The difference, as far as I can tell, is pretty big. I'm sure there are those Athiests who when around Christians call themselves Agnostic so as to sound in between the two extremes but for myself "Athiest" has very often been used to mean someone who is set in disbelief. Whereas the Athiest argument holds that it is more rational to not believe in a God, the Agnostic (in my humble opinion) says that it seems more rational not to make decisions at all and that the addiction to the false idea of "knowing" is destructive.

I do understand that what you are saying is that Athiesm doesn't mean disbelief in God. It originates from Latin meaning no theocracy so that would seem to make sense. I just figured that's why there are two terms, Athiesm and Agnostiscism(sp?).\ and as the dictionary agrees with me I'll continue to use them that way.

Oh and why is aborting a fetus any different than deciding to have unprotected sex and then changing your mind. I mean in that sense you had the possibility to bring a child into the world and then terminated that possibility. That potential child could have been an astronaut or converted Americans to the metric system.

And what about herbal/massage induced miscarriages?

And one more thing. I don't really like the argument that the child would rather have not been born. As much as people can say it out loud and in their head, I'm under the impression that very very few people wish they never existed. Even in the worst conditions it is still a beautiful world and beautiful thing to be alive and even in denying it some part of you knows and enjoys the colors your computer screen reflects on to your keyboard.

I'm for abortion rights because I can't see a big enough difference between a sperm and an egg and a sperm and egg together. I don't really like abortion late in the childs developement because there is a bit of evidence of womb memory and such and it's just a really sad thing to have a child die as it is just realizing itself.

[Vwing]

Walrus, by dictionary definitions, again, you're right. But in that case, then I would consider myself agnostic, because I'm not sure, and I know that until I die, I can never be sure. But as you put it, I'm going by a non-dictionary meaning, a meaning which I think has been bastardized over the years. Agnosticism, to me, just seems like a euphemism for atheism, one that has developed so that people can feel that they don't have to make a decision, so they can walk the thin line between piety and atheism, a line that I don't think really exists. If you are atheist, you say, you believe it's rational to believe there is not a god, while agnostics "believe" that you shouldn't believe anything. Your definition of agnosticism is really what I view atheism as being. I would say it's rational to assume there's not a God, that there's not a man in the sky who looks after you, but you can't be sure and must of course be open to anything and everything. In my own experiences, atheists I've met are all very open-minded, they are ready to accept anything as long as they are given reason to accept it. They just have not been given any reason to accept god, and I don't think that's too destructive.

But again, much of this is just semantics, and dictionary definitions. I'm sure if a so-called agnostic and a so-called atheist sat down and discussed their views, they would basically be the same views.

[WalrusOfPlastic]

I agree. Definitions are likely the silliest things to argue over. I do however have friends who are very sure of their disbelief in a God, one in particular and if I'm adopting a generalization I don't want it to be the one that she calls herself as we are in very different places as far as that goes. I personally believe in applying the agnostic attitude to all of my life. Decisions need not be made about what should/is or shouldn't/isn't be. I choose to act as if there is ground under my feet but if that were ever to be proven false I would be the first to accept it (I'd like to think anyway.) Now I'm just talking so... I'm done.

[SimeSublime]

I have to agree with WoP, sorry. There are people out there who literally belive there is nothing. I, on the other hand, belive there is(or at least was)something, but I don't feel any resonance with any religion. Though as you said, a lot(if not most)atheists would happily convert if God stepped up to the plate and prooved his existance, but until that happens will stand as they are.

To make things worse, WoP also mentioned that not having sex is also a type of murder, hence stealing my next point. Damn you!

So, I'll jump to the suicide thing. As we know, God told Moses "Thoult shall not Kill". This applies not only to other people, but also yourself(though strangely enough, killing animals is perfectly allright). So, suicided is a form of murder and hence a mortal sin, and as Bethany(?) said Dogma if you die with a mortal sin on your soul, then you burn.

[Creaux]

Found this site, it's sort of interesiting.
http://www.abortiont...reDangerous.htm

As far as suicide goes...you give evidence as to why it's important in your own post, Madam Corvax...Yes, you went through a lot of shit, but in the end, you found a pretty kickin' guy. Things can ALWAYS get better. They can get worse, and they can have a 95% chance of getting worse, but they can always get better.

I really hope you guys don't think that I'm an asshole...I know that I'm new, and I know that this is an incendeary topic, I just find it important to be true to myself, and not keep quiet just because I'm new. If you don't like me based off of this topic, then I can accept that, and I just ask that you think about everything that I've said, and think that not ALL catholics/religous people are COMPLETELY insane.

I have some emotional depth issues, but it is nothing of my choosing. I've never thougt of it as weak for a man or anyone to express emotions, and I was rased by very loving parents. As a child, I thought of myself as an emotionally deep person and always wanted to stay like that. Not only for general life/relationships, but I have also always wanted to have a resivoir of passion to draw from for my art (no pun intended...hehehehehe...I wouldn't lie, right?)...It just didn't happen that way. I simply am not a very passionate person, emotionally. I've never been in love or even had a crush, I've never suffered from serious depression...Eh. I do what I can, and I try to make people happy. I just work with what i'm given.

[Creaux]

I have to agree with WoP, sorry. There are people out there who literally belive there is nothing. I, on the other hand, belive there is(or at least was)something, but I don't feel any resonance with any religion. Though as you said, a lot(if not most)atheists would happily convert if God stepped up to the plate and prooved his existance, but until that happens will stand as they are.

To make things worse, WoP also mentioned that not having sex is also a type of murder, hence stealing my next point. Damn you!

So, I'll jump to the suicide thing. As we know, God told Moses "Thoult shall not Kill". This applies not only to other people, but also yourself(though strangely enough, killing animals is perfectly allright). So, suicided is a form of murder and hence a mortal sin, and as Bethany(?) said Dogma if you die with a mortal sin on your soul, then you burn.

Keep in mind that this same God asked for burnt offerings of animals. I'm no hebraic scholar, but I believe the term for "kill" used is specific to killing humans...I could be wrong, but...

I think that there's more than enough evidence in the Bible to conclude that it's OK to kill animals for food.

[Just your average movie goer]

According to the Bible, God also asked for the slaughter of people as well and actually asked people to commit genocide in some instances.

One example that comes to mind is that he specifically asked the Israelites to kill all the Amorites, down to last woman and child and show no mercy.

So there you go... the Bible is a bit contradictory at times, isn't it?

Devine religious text or ancient Israelite propaganda to justify mass murder?

Make of it what you will.


And while I'm here, just for fun...

Jesus curses a tree

Jesus was hungry. He went to a fruit tree but it was barren so he got really pissed off and said to the tree "You shall never again bear fruit!" After this, the tree withered and died.

Now what the hell is up with that?

[SimeSublime]

Do you have a link or passage reference for that Movie Goer? I've heard it referenced before, but I've never seent he actual passage myself.

And Creaux, I can't talk for the others, but I actually respect you more for this thread. You've backed up a lot of your beliefs with good points and examples, and continued to try even though expecting to fail.

[Just your average movie goer]

I don't have a reference, no. But if you flick through a Bible, these things are pretty easy to find. Obviously, you'll find the first part in the Old Testament... where God was wrathful, petty, jealous and always interferring in the lives of men and smoting people left, right and centre.

The second part will be easy to find because you've only got Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to flip through.

Interesting reading, the Bible... and I wish more Christian fundamentalists would take the time to read it themselves before bashing the rest of us over the head with it.

[civilian_number_two]

Matthew 21:18-20. Oww, my head!

[Jordan]

Christian fundamentalists would take the time to read it themselves before bashing the rest of us over the head with it

I guess they're not really fundamentalists then. And whose bashing you over the head with the bible? I guess some one is, Christianity is quite popular in Korea.


I think the fig tree incident is symoblic of judgement. By your fruits you're known. Good trees bear good fruit, bad ones bear bad fruit. Bad ones don't go to heaven, therefore the tree was killed- which is like the second death (hell).

This post has been edited by Jordan: 23 October 2004 - 05:03 PM

[Jordan]

God was wrathful, petty, jealous and always interferring in the lives of men and smoting people left, right and centre.

I disagree. God gave up on man, and let them kill and live by the sword, and live by a human king, rather than him. Also God is not petty and jealous, and he did not interfer. It was man who interfered in the first place with his plans. And if God is God, then he has ultimate authority. Your humanistic stand point means little. If he wanted too, he could kill us all right now and it would be justified, since he is the ultimate judge and is without error.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 23 October 2004 - 05:10 PM

[Amber-Nicole]

If he wanted too, he could kill us all right now and it would be justified, since he is the ultimate judge and is without error.

(Jordan)

I'm afraid I'm going to have to respond by saying that is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. My apologies.