[civilian_number_two]

Mormons are notorious haters of Catholics. Probably that's why they made a pilgrimage to Poland, to convert the heathen fucking scum, or die trying.

Also, they probably heard Polish women buck like goats. giddyup!

[WalrusOfPlastic]

I'm always hearing from atheists, agnostics etc. that people don't need fear of a lake of fire to have a moral code. As much as I absolutely agree that that's possible, why hold on to terms like "good and bad"? What exactly do they mean? All they are really are way broad classifications for what a person should and shouldn't do. But why is there a should and shouldn't? That implies some invisible code to life that really is just as apparent as a God is. I think it's more about what you like and don't like. I don't like getting hurt. I like empathizing with people, therefor I don't like when other people get hurt. No need to classify anything in there and gives me the freedom to change what I feel about different situations as quickly as I'm given new information.

Classifying something as evil 1.) doesn't really mean anything 2.) doesn't accomplish anything. Actually I take that back. It gives you a chance to judge others who commit your proclaimed "evil" acts, granting you the ability to label that person as "evil" thus dehumanizing them (kinda like calling someone a terrorist) thus relieving any guilt about doing whatever the hell you want to them.

That's my couple'o'cents.

[Jordan]

Needless to say, you smoke crack.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 14 October 2004 - 07:31 PM

[Jordan]

Mormon's are scary. My pal's family is Mormon. They go to UTAH every year for some family gathering. They only drink Caffine, Sugar free coke. (that gold can coke)

I've heard some tale about Mormon's hating blacks. That they are the spawn of the devil, or something along those lines. I'm not sure if it's true.

[civilian_number_two]

I don't know nothing about that, but apparently Joseph Smith was among many who found Native Americans theologically troublesome, what with a global flood and all. So the conclusion was that God had repopulated the Earth after the flood, stupid ark be damned, and that the "Indians" were not descendants of Adam.

http://www.xmission....tral/vogel4.htm

[WalrusOfPlastic]

Hey. I don't smoke crack. I don't even smoke marijuana. Hell, I don't even smoke tobacco except for the very occasional clove cigaret.

The Mormons are interesting. Believe Jesus came to America. They have a whole other testament. They are really as different to more standard Christianity as Islam or Judaism.

[WalrusOfPlastic]

Also, one day Joseph Smith had a funny feeling about hot drinks. So he prayed to his God and his God set him straight and from then on it was deamed immoral to drink any hot drinks. That's what I read anyway.

[Madam Corvax]

Are Mormons Catholic-haters? I never knew. Well, these two guys didn’t really strike me as haters of anyone. They were clean-cut, pink-scrubbed, squeaky-clean lads, obviously well-educated. How come that somebody like that believes in Joseph Smith and find excuses for their rules? I remember asking them why there is no women among their Elders, and they said that every wife of an Elder is blessed and elevated by her husband’s rank, so she is in fact equal to an Elder (or such similar load of cobblers).

I didn’t even argue with these boys. As I said, if they find consolation in their religion, fine. But just don’t try to make me believe that God spoke to Joseph Smith.

But Civ, enlighten me in one respect –would Mormons find Polish women bucking like goats attractive ????????

[Creaux]

Hmm. Well, I guess I'd better defend Catholocism a bit.

Let me start by giving out my logical person credentials: I agree that people who take the bible word-for-word literally are to say the LEAST foolish, and I agree about the idea of men influencing the text of the bible. Can't pour something pure through a dirty hose and have it come out clean, can ya?

Furthermore, I am not thesort who blindly follows whatever the pope, my local archbishop, my bishop, my priest nor anyone elsesays, even the bible. seeabove on that one. I believe that God gave me Rationality (such sas it is) as well as my conscience, so when I am trying to make a moral choice, I pray on it and I think about it. I find plenty of value in the bible and in listening to priests and the Pope and so on for the same reason others might read philosophers--to inform my descisions, for ideas I might not have come up with. The rituals of the church often help me calm down and focus on what I want to be thinking about. That is half of the value of the church to me. The other half? What percentage of hospitals are "St. Whomever"? While there are certainly objectionable aspects to catholic schools (I never went, except for 2 years of college, but my transfer had nothing to do iwth that), groups such as the Jesuits have done a lot of work in spreading learning across the globe.

Why do I not think the Catholic Church is evil? Well, for one, the percentage of Priests who have committed pedophillic abuse is between 2 and 4 percent, which IS roughly double the normal population, but is also a small enough population that those who snicker inside whenever they see a priest should think about what they are doing--Priests give up a lot of comforts that you or I might enjoy. They are extremely well-educated men, having as much school as a doctor. The level of aceticism and education there should be worth SOME respect, not to mention how many people they council through how many problems in a week...even if you don't like their method of council, those they try to help are apparently comforted enough thereby that they come back for more council.

Furthermore, the church has had quite a long history--What group that's been around a quarter of the legnth of the church, not to mention the difference in culture accross it's breadth that it has had to deal with, has not committed attrocities? Like Citizen 2 said, many of these (not just Catholocism here) were given thinly veiled religous excuses. As far as the Crusades go, while they were pretty crummy, it isn't like Pope Leo Whatevernumber just got up one morning and decided the A-rabs were pissing him off; muslim armies were besieging Vienna. (Oddly enough, this battle gave Europe coffee...) The crusades were a two-sided war.

I'd agree that it is pretty annoying when people try to push beliefs upon you. Religous groups are perfectly willing to attempt to cannibalize members from other religions. It's also sort of annoying whenever your beliefs are catigorically dismissed and you are labeled as a lugheaded, blind, willfully willess lump of flesh.

I don't worry too much about the afterlife, I just try to make those around me happy. I also don't walk down the street thinking, "He's going to hell; Wow, he is too. He's probably [SIZE=1]gay![/SIZE=1] Oh, pentacle necklace? SHE'S gonna burn!" I think that God loves humans, but what he loves about us is how we're so dumb and imperfect, but, knowing that, we try to improve. I don't think that people of other religions are going to hell, I don't think that athiests are going to hell. I think that anyone who has faith in humanity, be it directly or through God, anyone who tries to make this world better, despite all of the chaos around them, has a place in Heaven.

I don't think the point behind Citizen 2's probability argument was that the world is how it is, with Tokyo where it is and Eat'n'Park being a stupid name (decent pie and coffee, though). I think it is more that for ANY sort of life to exist is pretty unlikely, and for intelligent life to exist is much more so.

Don't think of God as nessicarily having let bad shit happen and been weak and powerless. Worse things might also have happened. The USA and USSR certainly never shot nukes at each other. Also, God doesn't want to play legos, so he gives us free will. You can't really have it both ways, free will and no problems in the world! I try to live my life as well as I can, yet I know that I have caused others problems and wil lcause people problems. I'm even causing people problems right now, mostly 'cause I lack the courage to do what I think I know I need to do, or am not sure at all what I need to do.

I also am a big fan of hamburgers. with crumbled bleu cheese on them. But not bleu cheese dressing. That's nasty.

I also want to note that I agree with my stalkee that there are mysogynist tendencies within the church. I think I'm gonna start trying to do more to stop them, rather than (as I have in the past) notice and silently dissaproove. It's my church too!

Um, anyway, time for bed.

This post has been edited by Creaux: 15 October 2004 - 02:30 AM

[Madam Corvax]

Ok, if you
-Do not take the Bible literally
-You do not support the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope
-You do not worry about afterlife
-You do not believe that atheists go to hell

What exactly do you need the Catholic Church for?

You know, the above beliefs make you basically a heretic. I seems strange to me to follow a faith but somehow… selectively. It is not THE faith anymore, it is your specific variety.

Anyway, why do you think Catholic Church is not evil? Is it because:

-Of their attitude towards homosexuals and lesbian (it is ok to be homosexual, as long as you “remain chaste” all the time),

-Of their attitude towards women, which is that they are basically deficient human beings (they have no representation whatsoever in the establishment of the church, cannot participate in rites etc),

-Of their attitude towards women again, which is basically that in a hypothetical situation when you are to choose between the life of the mother or the foetus, you are to choose that the foetus survives, rather than the fully-grown up human being ,

-of their totally hypocritical views of towards birth-control (it is ok to use natural method, but not the others)

-of their inhumane views concerning fertility treatments for couples who cannot have children (God did not want them to have children and so shall it be)

-of their inconsistent attitude towards involvement in politics (they supported anti-communist movement in Eastern Block, but did not want priests in South America to be involved in a political struggle against regimes)

-of their attitude towards use of condoms (it is wrong to use them, despite the fact that they prevent spreading of diseases)

And so on, and so on. Sure, some of the moral teachings are ok, but sincerely, I do not need the whole load of doctrine, two thousand years of torture and war and hypocrisy to know, that basically I need to treat other human beings the way I would like them to treat me.

[Despondent]

Name calling I don't agree with: Mormons revere an angel whose name is "Moron" that ends with an "I." Yes, I heard this at a church social function. :angry:

Mormon humor I relish: that south park episode ("dum dum dum dum dumb" and the tune for the woman who questions the religion's basis: "smart smart smart smart smart")

[Slade]

Walrus - Precisely. Good and evil are abstract concepts that are easily mutable. It's rather hard to find absolutes in this world. The way I see it, you've got on one axis creation/destruction, and the other one order/chaos. Granted these need a bit of tweaking some time when I get bored and start pondering the universe in that vein and neither are black and white... Blah blah, respect others, value life, blah... Actually, I really don't feel like yammering any longer, as I'm tired and in class. So don't start a debate with me, por favor.

Creaux - I like your style.

[Jordan]

Do not take the Bible literally
You do not believe that atheists go to hell

If that's ture just drop the 'christian' label and do us all a favor. People like you just cause confusion to the matter.

I"m a christian who hates christ but loves the paper bibles are made of!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 15 October 2004 - 10:50 AM

[Creaux]

Ok, if you
-Do not take the Bible literally
-You do not support the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope
-You do not worry about afterlife
-You do not believe that atheists go to hell

What exactly do you need the Catholic Church for?

You know, the above beliefs make you basically a heretic. I seems strange to me to follow a faith but somehow… selectively. It is not THE faith anymore, it is your specific variety.

a little bit of clerical work here-The Catholic church is not fundementalist. I believe in theafterlife, I just don't spend all of my time worrying about it. When I help someone out, I don't do it because I think it will help me get into heaven. That's childish. I am insulted by that thought. And if you seriously think that I take PLEASURE in the idea of someone enduring eternal torment...I don't know who has the problem there.

There has always been a certain ammount of diffusion of views in the church; how else could it ever change at all? I stay with the curch with my views BECAUSE I want to change it. I'm not thesort of irresponsible asshole who will abandon an ailing person OR insitution. I CARE. YES, the church is backwards, horribly backwards in many ways, but is it better to let it grow increacingly isolated and regressive, or to modernize it and preserve the infrastructure that is capableof helping so many? Catholic Charities, which does NOT (there may be isolated cases, but once these are discovered, they are stopped!) force people to pray or convert for food, is the largest NGO charity provider in the world.

I'll admit that a good part of the reason that I'm choosing to stay with the church is because I was raised in it. I'm willing to ceede that there is some validity to all of your points. Faith is (like love or hope) inherently illogical. However, think that I'm being more logical than any of those on this board who are trying to sum all christians into one group here. There are psychos EVERYWHERE! Much as Eddie Izzard differentiates between transvestitesand FUCKING WEIRD transvestites, I do the same with religous people. Again, theye are more than a few nutty athiests. I mentioned the Nazi regime. How about Mao or Stalin? Religion has no exclusive hold on either nuttiness or on causing strife.

And I would really appreceate it if when someone replied, they took ALL of this into account!

And Stalkee, you made me late for lecture thismorning! Grr, had to read your post and think up some replies, then looked at the clock >;D

Jordan, I call myself a christian because I DO believe in the divinity of Christ and I DO believe in his teachings. I find the Golden Rule to be an exceptionally logical and wonderful thing. I simply do not see how an entity of perfect love can hate someone for following something that they truely, deep in their hearts, believe in. If you have thought long and hard, and your heart AND mind tell you that there cannot be a god or that you percievedivinity in a different way, well, I don't see howanything can be held against you. As the Deists said, any revealed religion takes someone else's word for it,and I can see how you or anyone else might have trouble with that. I believe that God has given me my conscience, and if my conscience tells me that yes, Jesus is real, if I think and pray about it, trying to look past my upbringing, trying to look into the ugliness that occurs in my life and others, also looking at the true beauty, and get this same answer, then I believe it. I don't believe hatred and exclusion have any part in love, therefore nor in God.

This post has been edited by Creaux: 15 October 2004 - 12:03 PM

[Creaux]

Apparently, you can only edit a post so many times. Ah well.

Another quick thought, I'm not sure about anyone's destination after life. I could be a fool, and there is absolutely nothing after death, I'll accept that risk. Religion brings enough to my life to make it worth it even without it being true. Heh.

It could be that the fundementalists are right...which is sort of scary. I don't know if I would want to be in such an exclusive heaven.

There's a lot of mysteries to religion, which surely confound a logical-based examination. I appologize for any irritation caysed by unexplainable tennets of my belief.