[civilian_number_two]

What I meant is that according to their own wider religious beliefs, they are breaking the rules... they claim to follow the Bible and that they are a denomination of Christianity. However, the Bible says there's to be no-one standing between God and men yet Catholics have this guy called the Pope. They also put a lot of other stuff in the mix.

So according to a Christian standpoint, they would be heretics.

Your non-specific claim is not actually a quote.

Where does "the Bible say" that there should be no religious leaders? Paul, James, Peter, Jerry Falwell, Jim Bakker, former Presidential Candidate Pat Roberston, all have made statements about God and all have been followed and admired as spiritual leaders by Christians of specific denominations.

And the head of the Church of England is still a particular Bishop, under the Queen.

Now: before you go into that whole "the Pope claims to be infallible" thing, that's a misunderstood idea that is frequently misapplied in this argument. The Pope claims to speak for God, sure, but that's not unique to Catholicism, and I don't think it is heretical according to Christianity as a rule. Paul claimed to speak for God, and is personally responsible for most of mainstream Christian belief and practice.

I got my own problems with Catholics, but I don't see anything hertical about the way they run their religion.

"all the other stuff in the mix' I attribute to allowing their faith to change over time and allowing for the idea of continued revelation. It's just as crazy, IMO, as "God does not talk to people ever, never ever, but come to chuch and hear the Word of God!"

-----------------

My personal favorite tactic when dealing with Fundamentalist Christians is not so much to know more than they do, but to ask for backup of everything they say. Like "Where's it say this?" or "How do you know that?" You find pretty quick that most folk are talking through their asses about what they know about their own religion. Then at some point I tell them I don't like religion, so they can say "I am not religious; I have a personal relationship with God and the Bible." I am then free to offer the one-two punch: "if everything you say comes from personal study, and not from religion, then how come you don't know where to find it?"

Nothing pisses off a Fundamentalist more than having it proven to him that he's religious.

[Despondent]

Just wanted to chime in briefly. I just got back from a spiritual retreat, one which (by the time it was over, granted) everyone was thrilled to have experienced. We all wanted to be there, and everybody got out of it More than what they were willing to invest.

I suppose what I'd like to express is that everyone has a right to their opinion. Trying to change a hard-pressed conviction is a waste of time; Life's too short.

[Madam Corvax]

Civ, from what you write about fundamentalists, your point of view is not very much distant from that of JYAMG or me.

What I say may be a cliche, but I'll repeat it - I have nothing against religion, provided it does not interfere with my of lack of it. The way the three major religions interfere with lives of man and especially women all over the world is now appaling, and they are doing it because they are so powerful.
Surely, other religions were doing it too. Incas were most skilled in all type of torture, Paunee Indians sacrificed gilrs to the Morning Star, etc, etc. They just never got the chance to influence so many people.

Does not it, however, strike you as odd that all these atrocities were commited in the name of one or another religion? That people were killed by thousands and millions in the name of religion?

I am not arguing about "heretics" stuff, because I do not know what JYAMG means by heretics.

And if someone derives consolation from religion - fine, I can only envy such person. I do not have such ability.

You see, I feel that if somebody's moral code stems from the fear of being punished in the afterlife, there is something slightly suspicios about it.

It is more admirable for me that somebody is good and moral, bacause he/she thinks it is right.

And there can be a moral code without religion, although a lot of people are convinced it is not possible.

[Jordan]

Religon is the worst thing in the world, now that I really think about it. I'm so smart, being an atheist I love everything and blah blah. As long as Religon don't force anything on me. I hate it when Religon is forced on me, living in Canada it happens every other day.

I'm a jerk off.

[civilian_number_two]

Hey Jordan, glad to see ya!

Have we switched roles here? I think this is your hat ...

[Jordan]

Hey, I've been busy. I'm trying to hold down this part time job along side school. It's not working out so well. I like having money though. Even if it's only $250 bucks every other week.

I'm able to get the Original Trilogy (remastered) on DVD for cost, thanks to my job. I might buy it. I rented SW. Overall it was good, save the boba fett/jabba scene.

I also viewed the documentary. Harrison FOrd, Kurtz, and much more speak on it. I never knew how much of a break through SW was until watching that bonus disc.

I think I caught Lucas telling a lie. He claims that Vader was always the Father of Luke and Leia. Yea right.

[civilian_number_two]

Yeah right indeed. In my brief stint as observer and casual Chefelf defender over at theforce.net (not all assholes, I swear), there was this one thread where guys were discussing at what point certain ideas might have evolved in the storytelling. like, you know, a regular discussion among normal college-educated guys.

Then this twerp comes along, presumably reads all these intelligent posts, and adds "The movies were always about the story of Anikin Skywalker, and his fall, and then his redemption."

Nobody posted after that. What's the point, in the face of such devastating reason? Now it all made sense! The reason Vader had so little screen time in STAR WARS, and the reason he was just the thug/menace in EMPIRE as well as JEDI (again, with not that much screen time, really), was because he was the MAIN CHARACTER! These movies will make a load of sense when viewed in order, with that in mind. Audiences will understand that the story of Anikin is also filled with all these other characters, and that every movie after SITH, apart from the last one, will end without any closing scene for the "hero." It will make perfect sense to follow these other drones around, since after all this is the story of Anikin, and that's how you're supposed to write about folks, by following other characters around and giving them all the important emotional development as well as the opening and closing scenes of your movies.

I haven't looked at that site since Chef posted and everyone scattered. But while I was looking at it, about half the posts were from dumbassed gushing fanboys like that.

[Madam Corvax]

Wow, I just noticed the ads in this thread. Very clever!

[Chefelf]

One thing that worries me about die hard Star Wars fans is that they punctuate their rants and raves with quotes from the movies/books much the same way a Fundamentalist would quote their appropriate religious text. Any line taken from any movie/book/TV show can be twisted around to imply just about anythign depending on how you interpret it.

Let it be known that I don't believe in God. However, a lot of people that don't believe in God seem to forget something: Going around trying to convince people with beliefs is every bit as annoying as them trying to convince you. At this point in my life I don't think I'm going to be convinced otherwise, so why should I try to convince anyone. My beliefs are for me and me alone. If someone shares them, great. If not, that's fine too. One thing that makes the world great is meeting so many different people with so many different beliefs. It's fascinating.

Just please don't show up on my doorstep to try to convince me of something. If I'm interested I'll seek you out or go to your church, but more than likely I'll read your website... it's far less work.

[SimeSublime]

I know that I've mentioned it before, but theres a great show called John Safran Vs God on SBS(for those in Australia)which looks at a lot of religions and the like. A few weeks ago he put on his white shirt and black pants, got his copy of "History of the Species", put on his 'Atheist' badge, and went door knocking in Salt Lake City.

I was just typing this up In response to Nate's post when I got a feeling of De ja vue, and sure enough, I'd already written it, in this thread to make things worse. Well, quoting myself. I've hit a new low.

[Chefelf]

Would you believe that I just got a knock on my door? I have been expecting the US Postal service to deliver a kitchen cart that Jen has ordered so that we no longer have to store our spoons and food on the floor. Instead of our healthy mailman at the door I was greeted by the sight of two very Christian women.

They asked me what I thought it would be like if the world was united under one government. I said I thought that sounded awful. They asked why. I told them because I think it makes the world great that we have so many different governments, beliefs and cultures.

They informed me that I was wrong. Apparently it would be great because God is planning on putting a "government" in place here on Earth. Everyone will live under one rule. There will be no rich or poor and everyone will live in peace.

I can only assume that we all get taffy and are allowed to watch endless Red Dwarf episodes.

Wow, that DOES sound great!

[SimeSublime]

You know, at first I thought you said 'Kitten Cart', and who wouldn't want a cart full of kittens?

[reiner]

You know, at first I thought you said 'Kitten Cart', and who wouldn't want a cart full of kittens?

a mouse

[Amber-Nicole]

Wow, I just noticed the ads in this thread. Very clever!

Heh, the first ad that I have is "God loves you."


I wish I had a kitten cart.

[Madam Corvax]

Would you believe, I once got visited by Mormons, actual Mormons from Utah. I loved these two guys, straight from Salt Lake City. They actually paid their own money to go to a mission to my uncivilized country, trying to convert people. They did a great job speaking Polish and were doing teaching English for charity. I really admired them for their dedication. But somehow I could not be convinced. How can any woman be converted or follow a faith which treats women in derogatory way? Beats me.