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Why mess with a winning formula? the massive gap between Empire and Jedi

#1 User is offline   Garth Vader Icon

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 06:45 PM

Some of the negative talk towards return of the jedi by SW fans got me thinking, why is Jedi so much weaker than its prequels and particularly why the impressive set up of empire strikes back for its next sequel was let down so badly? Here's why I think:


THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

directed by IRVIN KERSHNER produced by GARY KURTZ

screenplay by LEIGH BRACKETT and LAWRENCE KASDAN story GEORGE LUCAS

executive producer GEORGE LUCAS editor PAUL HIRSCH


This is what made empire a stand out in the series with this kind of quality behind the project, so why did Lucas change all this and not keep the same line up for Jedi? I'm aware Leigh Brackett tragically died just after writing the script for Empire, but for Return of the Jedi Lucas saw to it he got a young Director who would let him interfere and change what he wanted (marquand, who fought with lucas over casting decisions that lucas didn't want like ian mcdiarmid for the emporer), a new producer in howard kazijian who went along with ewoks and puppets (something Kurtz left over) and Lucas got himself in on the screen-writing (always a bad thing, even though kasdan was still there lucas was still contributing something to the script) and changed the editor to have more involvment in that. Do you think this is part of his ego in saying that Star Wars is his? I mean check out The Phamtom menace and attack of the clones:

directed by LUCAS produced by RICK MCALLUM (a total yes man)

screenplay by LUCAS (to quote lawrence kasdan upon reading lucas' early ROTJ screenwriting drafts "I can't believe he wrote this, it's absolutly terrible") AND JOHNATHAN HALES (for AOTC, probably another yes man judging by the awful dialogue and script in that film)

executive producer and editor LUCAS (along with his sound effects man ben burtt, probably another yes man)

Is it any wonder wonder Star Wars went down hill from Empire onwards - the more lucas gets involved the more it sucks. He just refuses to let anyone in on it, he's like a spoilt kid with a toy - doesn't he know it's poor in standard to the first two star wars films?

This post has been edited by Garth Vader: 04 October 2004 - 06:50 PM

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#2 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 06:58 PM

I couldn't agree more.
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#3 User is offline   Michel Orla Icon

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 07:31 PM

You hit the nail on the head. Ego. Lucas, who it's now clear had much help in ANH and ESB, wanted more of a say in ROTJ. And we saw the results, which clearly spilt over in the PT. (And who did Lucas want to play the Emperor? A muppet? yell.gif )

And let's not forget money. I was a wee lad, but I remember so many more toys coming out after ROTJ then Empire. I mean we had Jabba's throne room complete with trap door for God sakes! I can just see Lucas thinking of the toy possiblities when writing the sequence in Jabba's Palace

This post has been edited by Michel Orla: 04 October 2004 - 07:32 PM

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#4 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 11:45 PM

Did Lucas have uncredited help in scripting the first "Star Wars"? I've heard it rumoured. Rough drafts of the "Star Wars" screenplay have been floating around for a while and I've got print-outs of a couple; one I'm looking at now is dated May 1974. Now of course anyone can fake up an authentic-looking document but I trust this one; it fits what I little I know of rough drafts cited in more authentic books. And it is <i>dreadful</i>.

For me the worst thing about "Return of the Jedi" isn't the Ewoks, annoying as they are, but the ludicrously plotted action scenes. Both "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi" begin with big action set-pieces--the battle on Hoth and the rescue of Solo from Jabba's palace. The Hoth battle is genuinely tense and sensible (once you get past the foolish idea of the Imperial Walkers--bad, <i>bad</i> design.) But Solo's rescue is ridiculous. Why does Lando sneak into Jabba's crew? He doesn't <i>do</i> anything in the end but dangle on a rope and yell for help. Luke's brilliant plan consists of having R2D2 smuggle his lightsaber to him. How could Luke possibly know that R2D2 would end up on the same sail-barge as himself and his friends, especially since there seem to be three completely different plans for saving Solo (Lando's undercover operation, Leia's bounty-hunter imposture, and Luke's stupid attempt to mind-trick Jabba)? And how could luke count on his enemies' being so incompetent? Boba Fett fails to hit Luke even though he's maybe ten yards away (shades of Special Edition Greedo!); the one guy who shoots Luke in the hand just <i>stands</i> there and waits for Luke to cry out, whirl around, and cut him down. (He even tracks Luke with his blaster! Why the %!@* doesn't he shoot again??) The only action sequence in ROTJ that's more stupid is the fight on Endor, where <i>an entire <b>legion</b></i> of Storm Troopers scatter pell-mell into the woods to be cut down piecemeal by a pack of animated teddy-bears.

Incidentally, after "The Phantom Menace" I heard it put about on newsgroups like rec.arts.movies.current-films that Star Wars fans shouldn't complain about TPM's crappy dialogue because the Star Wars films <i>always</i> had crappy dialogue. I disagree, of course; the dialogue of "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" has its clumsy bits ("you...nerf-herder!" *groan*) but there's a lot of real sparkle there. Even "Return of the Jedi" has its good moments.
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#5 User is offline   Give Me The Originals Dammit Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 12:17 AM

As I've stated before, I don't really hate Jedi, only becuase it gave closure, albeit not in the most satisfying way. However one thing that really bugged me is the amazing difference in the acting in both movies. In Empire these people gave incredible performances, In Jedi it was wooden and flat. If you disagree with me just watch the scene where Carrie Fischer professes her love for Han in Empire, then compare it to her scene in Jedi where she says "Hold Me." Kind of a big difference. The fact Harrison Ford wasn't quite so thrilled to be in ROTJ, probably didn't help either. They aren't the only ones look at Mark Hamill's scene when he's leaving Dagoobah to go to cloud city, he just sounds convincing. He wants, HE NEEDS to go to the aid of his friends., now compare that to Yoda's death scene in Jedi, when he's confronted with the fact Vader is his father... Don't you think he may have been just a ta more emotional than that? And don't try to say that's his Jedi training, He's not a vulcan so he can feel some damn emotions! The only person who's acting didn't seem effected was Bily Dee Williams, I am supposing this is because he was grateful for the work. wink.gif

There are a lot of reasons why Empire is superior to Jedi, but the acting sure contributed in my opinion.
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#6 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 12:39 AM

QUOTE
the one guy who shoots Luke in the hand just <i>stands</i> there and waits for Luke to cry out, whirl around, and cut him down.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't stand that. That is just far too stupid to swallow - as is the whole overly complicated rescue.


QUOTE
I mean we had Jabba's throne room complete with trap door for God sakes!


Is that for real? Did Lucas market a toy that allowed little children to throw dancing girl figurines down a hole and then stuff them into the mouth of a toy monster? Lucas, Lucas, Lucas.... (shakes head sadly)
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#7 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 12:57 AM

so if they were involved in something you hate, theyre `yes men`, and if they wernt, then they arnt (thats right isnt it?)? if you want to convince people with your argument you need to come up with something more solid then blaming the mysterious "yes men", particulary when you cant back these outlandish claims up with anything more solid than "well, i didnt like jedi or the prequels."

SW gets worse the more Lucas is involved. ok, exept he wrote and directed Hope, and came up with the story and structure for the beloved Empire. its this unwillingless to give Lucas his due and credit that i find most mysterious.
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#8 User is offline   Michel Orla Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 01:14 AM

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Oct 5 2004, 12:39 AM)
QUOTE
I mean we had Jabba's throne room complete with trap door for God sakes!


Is that for real? Did Lucas market a toy that allowed little children to throw dancing girl figurines down a hole and then stuff them into the mouth of a toy monster? Lucas, Lucas, Lucas.... (shakes head sadly)

Much as I'd like to say that 's how it was, the acutally toy was pretty damn crappy. The trap door would open to a space about 3 inches deep. Star Wars figures would fall down inside the pit until about their hips. And of course the Rancor toy was far too big to put inside.

Sadly, Oola never was available either. At least back in 1983
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#9 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 04:28 AM

Give me a Darth Vader figure or Luke's X-Wing anyday. Or one of those Mellenium Falcon toys where you could open it up and put the figures inside...

damn, I always wanted one of those.... sad.gif

QUOTE
SW gets worse the more Lucas is involved. ok, exept he wrote and directed Hope, and came up with the story and structure for the beloved Empire. its this unwillingless to give Lucas his due and credit that i find most mysterious.


I'll give him the credit for Star Wars (I refuse to call it A New Hope).

But something happened after that. Lucas really pulled out of The Empire Strikes Back. Lawrence Kasdan did the screenplay and Irvin Kirshner directed it. Gary Kurtz was the producer, as he was in Star Wars. Suddenly, the best Star Wars film appeared and it surpassed its genre, being not just a good science fiction/fantasy film but one of the greatest movies of all time.

Suddenly, Kirshner is gone because Lucas found him to be too independent. Kurtz is gone, because Kurtz (like many of us) don't like Ewoks or the idea of the muppets appearing in a Star Wars film. Suddenly, we get this really shitty movie that made the greatest film saga at the time end with a whimper, instead of the bang that was anticipated.

And now that Lucas is in complete control of Star Wars, the franchise has never felt more different or further removed from The Empire Strikes Back.

Where The Empire Strikes Back is largely a human story, the prequels are all filled with CGI.

Where The Empire Strikes Back focuses on a few characters and gives us a much more intimate tale, the prequels have more unnecessary characters than you can poke a stick at and hopelessy contrived, complicated plots that don't make a lot of sense.

No, Jariten, we don't have evidence that the more control Lucas gets, the worse Star Wars becomes. However, we do have A VERY STRONG CORRELATION between Lucas getting more control and the decline of these movies.

I don't understand how you can enjoy these films by the way. I really don't. As much as I try to think about them with an open mind, as much as I try to see them in their own right (instead of comparing them to The Empire Strikes Back), I cannot see them as anything but this -

extremely silly, uninteresting, unentertaining, empty, pointless, irritating shit.


I used to think they were disappointing as well but I'm over it now, as I let go of any hopes for the series.
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#10 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 08:05 AM

QUOTE (Garth Vader @ Oct 4 2004, 07:45 PM)
executive producer and editor LUCAS (along with his sound effects man ben burtt, probably another yes man)

I won't hear a bad word about Ben Burtt. Burtt's work is one of the few things that remained consistend across the OT and PT. He has always done a stellar (no pun intended) job. Just listen to the sound design independent of what's going on in the movie... it's great. Particularly that "seismic charge" scene in attack of the Clones. That was the only think in AOTC that made me go: "Wow, that's cool."

John Williams is the only other person that seems to have done good, consistent, work between the OT and PT. The rest of it, doesn't feel as much like star wars as the sound design and soundtrack.
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#11 User is offline   Garth Vader Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 11:55 AM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ Oct 5 2004, 08:05 AM)
QUOTE (Garth Vader @ Oct 4 2004, 07:45 PM)
executive producer and editor  LUCAS (along with his sound effects man ben burtt, probably another yes man)

I won't hear a bad word about Ben Burtt. Burtt's work is one of the few things that remained consistend across the OT and PT. He has always done a stellar (no pun intended) job. Just listen to the sound design independent of what's going on in the movie... it's great. Particularly that "seismic charge" scene in attack of the Clones. That was the only think in AOTC that made me go: "Wow, that's cool."

John Williams is the only other person that seems to have done good, consistent, work between the OT and PT. The rest of it, doesn't feel as much like star wars as the sound design and soundtrack.

Ben Burrt may be a great sound effects man but he was in charge of editing AOTC and I'm guessing he was appointed so Lucas could have someone who wasn't too independant and would let him interfere and change what he likes. The editing at times in the two prequels haven't been that great.
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#12 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE
Where The Empire Strikes Back is largely a human story, the prequels are all filled with CGI.


Well, remember that there was a recently-screen series of rather popular films, starring an actor whose photo you're using as your icon, that used CGI like crazy (*wink*).

But there's an obvious difference; in Peter Jackson's films the computer graphics only occasionally seem to overwhelm the story. I think that his animators "chase" too many projectiles, arrows and catapult stones and so forth; Legolas's takedown of the Imperial Walker--er, the mumak--looks a bit fakey to me. But these are minor complaints. From Lucas's new films, though, more than one person got the impression that Lucas cared about nothing but the CGI. One of Jar Jar's problems, for example, is that (as I see it) the animators went a little nuts and decided to make him do everything that they could make him do; so Jar Jar never stops moving, even when he's asleep; he's forever twitching, leaping, pulling faces, sticking out his tongue, and so forth.

Also I think that Lucas's films seem more lifeless than Jackson's because of the difference of their respect for actors. I don't know for sure but I suspect that Jackson treated his actors with some respect (e.g. he gave Andy Serkis a walk-on role in "Return of the King" so that he'd be more than an unseen model and a voice). Meanwhile we know that Lucas treats his actors negligently. Terence Stamp, a well-known British actor who's had a fairly long and respectable career, had this to say about Lucas:

QUOTE
Stamp Talks ‘Phantom Menace’

In a recent interview, Terence Stamp has chosen to be brutally candid
about working on Star Wars: Episode One – The Phantom Menace. During
an interview with The Entertainian website, Stamp was asked about his
work in Episode 1, which prompted the following Q & A exchange between
the actor and interviewer, Ian Ebright:

I.E. How was your experience working with George Lucas and company on
Episode I?

T.S. Minimal. Three days, hardly any direction, three pages faxed to
me. He [Lucas] doesn't trust his actors, if he doesn't trust you
enough to let you read the script, he can't expect too much of you.
One of the young actresses that I admire, I really admire - Natalie
Portman,--I was really looking forward to working with Natalie, and on
my first day that I was scheduled to work with her, I got there and
George said 'oh, listen I've given Natalie the day off now. See this
post with this bit of paper stuck on it--that's where Natalie is.'

I.E. So you got to act with a post?

T.S. I got to act with a post.

I.E. Are you going to be back in Episode II as Chancellor Valorum?

T.S. I don't think so. No, I'm sure I won't. If he had needed me, then
he would have told me.

I.E. Who would win in a lightsaber duel, Terence Stamp or Darth Maul?

T.S. I'm not sure I could lose something like that. I'm too crafty.


Doesn't say much for Lucas, does it?

(Incidentally, I probably shouldn't say this, but while I agree that Jackson's "Lord of the Rings" films have merit, I groaned at what they did to the actual story--and I'm not merely complaining that Jackson cut out this or that favourite scene, because there's no arguing that drastic cutting wasn't necessary; I dislike the more fundamental changes in Tolkien's themes and the nature of the characters. But that's a discussion for another time and another place.)
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#13 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 01:59 PM

GMTOD, again, I'll concede that both Ford and Fisher have had better days (though I really don't think Fisher was that bad except a couple of scenes), but I have to strongly disagree with you about Hamill. I thought Hamill gave his best pure acting performance of the trilogy. And the thing you said about his reaction to Yoda confirming Vader was his father is ridiculous. We already saw him go, "NOOO! NOOOO! IT'S NOT TRUE! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! NOOOO!" What the hell do you want him to do? Certainly he's not going to react like that again. He's heard it from Yoda now, he already pretty much believes it, because he did search his feelings, he did realize it was true, so there's really just a stunned acceptance on his face. He did a great job here of NOT overracting in a scene that could have very easily been overracted, and I actually think that holds true for the entire movie. He does a great job of showing how he has matured into a Jedi, and I think he was extremely believeable as a Jedi Knight.

And JYAMG, though Lucas had the least control of ESB, you must realize he still did have a bunch of control. This was still his baby, and he oversaw it, made the story, and I'm sure supervised much of the time when Kershner was directing. Not to take anything away from Kershner, this clearly was his movie, but you shouldn't take too much away from Lucas either. And I think Kershner left because he just didn't want to do it anymore. What you said about him wanting a less independent director is also inaccurate. Originally, Lucas wanted Spielberg to do it, but because of ESB Lucas was forced to quit the Director's Guild and Writer's Guild, and so he was not legally allowed to hire Spielberg, who I'm sure would have had all the control he wanted, I don't care if they're friends, as a director, Spielberg wouldn't have taken any shit from Lucas. Kershner didn't do it because it was really hard work, it was 3 very long, hard years of his life, not to mention the fact that he got fined for it by the DG (which Lucas paid for by the way), and he had had enough. So again, let's not say anything too rash, I do understand what you're saying, but I really don't think it was true.
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#14 User is offline   Garth Vader Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 03:23 PM

QUOTE (Vwing @ Oct 5 2004, 01:59 PM)
And JYAMG, though Lucas had the least control of ESB, you must realize he still did have a bunch of control.  This was still his baby, and he oversaw it, made the story, and I'm sure supervised much of the time when Kershner was directing.  Not to take anything away from Kershner, this clearly was his movie, but you shouldn't take too much away from Lucas either.  And I think Kershner left because he just didn't want to do it anymore.  What you said about him wanting a less independent director is also inaccurate.  Originally, Lucas wanted Spielberg to do it, but because of ESB Lucas was forced to quit the Director's Guild and Writer's Guild, and so he was not legally allowed to hire Spielberg, who I'm sure would have had all the control he wanted, I don't care if they're friends, as a director, Spielberg wouldn't have taken any shit from Lucas.  Kershner didn't do it because it was really hard work, it was 3 very long, hard years of his life, not to mention the fact that he got fined for it by the DG (which Lucas paid for by the way), and he had had enough.  So again, let's not say anything too rash, I do understand what you're saying, but I really don't think it was true.

Lucas had minimal if any creative input in ESB - that's the whole point. he financed it yes and he did the story outline (characters, plot, envionmentts etc - which lucas is very good at with his imagination) and was in charge of post-production (like he should) but the screenwriting - script, dialogue, characterisation, editing and direction (the heart and soul of any film) went to someone else capable of making you care about the characters, this is why it was so successful and popular amongst SW fans with it's human feel as well as a space adventure and the prequels are mainly all flash with CGI and action set pieces and with little or no emotion.

Also, the likes of david croeneberg (sp?) and david lynch were going to direct Jedi but turned it down because of the ewoks and stuff. I've never actually heard of kershner declining to direct jedi but I'm sure he would've if lucas asked him to, he just wanted a young director like marquand who he could boss around (and according to an interview with kershner, the actors stopped responding to marquand for some reason and he effectively abondoned the project, leaving lucas and an unnamed assistant director to take over and work uncredited as directors of the film). As for spielberg - I'm pretty sure that's a false rumour. Spielberg had asked Lucas personally on numerous occiasions if he could direct the prequel trilogy and lucas has refused (speilberg saying that it was lucas's "baby") - surely if he was going to let his friend direct jedi back then he would've been nice enough to give him a go and allow him to direct at least one chapter of the prequels?

This post has been edited by Garth Vader: 05 October 2004 - 03:31 PM

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#15 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 04:13 PM

QUOTE (Garth Vader @ Oct 5 2004, 03:23 PM)
surely if he was going to let his friend direct jedi back then he would've been nice enough to give him a go and allow him to direct at least one chapter of the prequels?

Well first of all, if the "rumor" is false, then the documentary makers of "Empire of Dreams" really just lied to us by telling us that Spielberg was going to do JEDI if Lucas didn't pull out of the director's guild. I really liked the doc., and I don't think they would blatantly lie to us, so I'm going to go with them on this and say that it was true.

Second, regarding your quote, you're forgetting that Lucas didn't direct ESB because he was so tired from direting ANH that he said he would never direct anything like that again. So for ESB and ROTJ, he wasn't even considering directing, and wanted to hand over the reins to someone else. He still wanted creative control up to a certain point, but definitely wanted someone else to do all the stressful work that had so disillusioned him. The reason he came back to do the prequels was because he felt he could now direct with much less effort put into squeezing the budget to get the desired effects. Now that he is able to do that, he would never think of letting someone else direct them, because he does consider them his "babies." But back in '83, especially coming off the success they had writing and directing Radiers of the Lost Ark, I'm sure he would have gladly let Spielberg to do it.

Also, if anything, I would say having Cronenberg or Lynch do it is the rumor. I can't deny it because I don't know, but they seem much too avant gard for a Star Wars movie. That sounds like a fan-made rumor from someone who hated the Ewoks, but it just doesn't seem true to me. A director wouldn't say, "I'm doing the movie" before reading the actual script and then turn it down because of that reason. Again, idk, but it just sounds fishy to me, especially considering the types of directors they are.

This post has been edited by Vwing: 05 October 2004 - 04:16 PM

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