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Why PhantomMenace didn't suck (let's have a decent argument!)

#1 User is offline   azerty Icon

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 01:30 AM

OK so I am a new guy. But I say this: Everybody agrees with everybody too much! I want to argue, dammit. Ok, so Attack of the Clones is 100% total crap, no arguments there. Star Wars, (I refuse to call it new hope) was fine. Return of the Jedi was 99% crap, and Empire Strikes Back may or may not be good. A lot of people like it a lot, I do not. But I have a different argument: The Phantom Menace is not as crap as everybody says. It is the second best movie of the whole series. Start the hate mail flying, but here is why I like it. This is a long post, but I gotta spit it out.. point by boring point.

OK, the lame scroll up at the start. It isn't so lame. This is supposed to be episode ONE for christ sakes. I don't want to hear - "the battle already rages..." as if I've somehow missed Episode Zero and have to catch up on some action. So it's a some half assed trade federation: GOOD! From the tiny acorn comes the mighty oak, and all that. I am still giving this thing a chance... Settle back for the story. Two jedi knights on a minor mission. OK, cool, jedi's are cool. These two jedi knights are maybe not the best or most famous, but we'll see what happens...

Those trade aliens? I like em! The japanese accents are a ballsy move, you gotta admit it - what else would you expect from dodgy trade federation types involved in some damn international trade blockade? Trade federation... why don't they just call those 2 Sanyo and Honda? George, you're a friggin genius. Han fired first, and that wasn't PC, and Japan is taking over space and that isn't PC either! Any way, they are as cool (so far) as Greedo ever was. Argue with that! The cheesy rubber masks are a plus, even if their lips don't move correctly. At least it aint CG. This is as much like real Star Wars as any movie I've seen so far in the last 20 years.

The way the space moves is strictly star wars as well. It looks deep and big like space should. Nobody else can jam as many stars onto a screen and make it look infinite and 3D. This aint no star trek universe. The dive onto the ring thing is cool. The spaceship sounds cool too. Every other space movie up to now has tried to copy Star War's look and sound, and now Star Wars itself is diverging from the standard and going with ships driven by P51-Mustang piston engines. George, you're a friggin genius.

Liam Neeson is a believable jedi. Spotty faced train-spotter is ok too. They treat that droid with total contempt. That is very Star Wars. Jawas just throw them in the hold with restraining bolts and zap them when they start acting up, Uncle Owen can't be bothered to spend 1 second listening to Threepio, Luke can't give two hoots on the moon when the red one blows up, Cantina man doesn't even want them standing around inside, tell em to wait out by the dumpster, and Solo just turns away in disgust when Threepio says hello on Tattooine. Nuff said, it is the Star Wars Universe again, and I like it. No bullshit about commander Data's civil rights, or Chewie wasting time putting one of the metal morons back together again.

Lord Sidious is pretty cool too. Nice stilted Star Wars accent, along the lines of "Darth Vader, Only you could be so bold", and "This station is now the ultimate power in the universe", and "Stay on Tar-Get!!" That's actually how they all talk in space, you know. Plus the guy is obviously evil, he's rude to the alien dude, and the plot already gets darker fast. Kill the jedi. Excellent...

Obi Wan has some super cool lightsaber moves. Better than any we've seen in any movie, for sure. I mean at least he can lift his arms over his head, and he's got his own style.

The paranoia of the aliens is catching. "we will not survive this." Oh, I hope not! Qui gon going straight through the door. How is that not cool? Maybe we should use the force to move somebody's pen and make it push the button on the other side of the door; No violence please, we're Jedi Knights! BOLLOCKS! Like Hannibal tells Mr. T: We're going in through the front door!

Those rolling droids appear. Are you not entertained?! Haven't seen anything like that before. Nothing ever rolls in space! Then they unfold and put out a shield and just open fire. You've got your 5 bucks entry's worth right there! And then, just like in the original, the heros escape out of the action to the planet below. At least the story is pushing on. Space Invasion, Yeah!!

Let's look at the story so far... So far it is Star Wars, and it is not. New and different, but not without some kind of original feel. It's like you could tell George Miller directed Babe right away and that Babe was more like Mad Max than Thunderdome could ever be. I am liking it so far. 10 minutes in and things are on the move. What's not to like, (except the lame valley dude bad guy droids, and pointless psycho babble about the force, but this rant is what I like, not hate!)

Queen Amidala appears and is also very Star Wars. Speaks with the right stilted space-accent. Cool art deco visiscreen too.

Palpatine's message jammed, nobody knows what's going on. Plot is still moving forward. Only the 2 jedi know what's going on, just like only the 2 droids knew what was going on in the original. Not like up to this point in Empire when the only thing that has happened is some stupid "Han old buddy" conversation about nothing and nothing squared. Or maybe they were lost in the snow - wake me up when they are rescued and we get some plot please... Sorry I digress.

Naboo's architecture is new and different. So you can have some style in space and don't have to build everything out of tinfoil covered egg cartons, wow who woulda thought that?

The invasion begins, and the big ships move like big ships should. Lot's of machinery on the planet surface. Let's kick some ass!

OK, Jar Jar is a wanker. But, (and this is IMPORTANT) OB1 and Qui Gonn think he is a wanker too, just like you do. "Get out of here!" and "Are you brainless?" spat out with complete contempt. They won't even LOOK at him. Here is the point: Not all aliens have to be cool you know, dorks might live out there somewhere too! But as long as they get no respect, that's fine by me. There might be too much sensitivity and sharing down here on earth, but in a galaxy far, far away, they obviously don't have to worry about that shit.

The underwater city - at least it is new and different. And it occurs to me, it's what's-his-names utterly lame acting that ruins Jar Jar, I mean why couldn't they get Peter Tosh to do the voice instead of Johnny No-Soul. And really, Jar Jar is no worse than grunting Yoda. Yes Yoda, grunt and purse your lips again. Oh, it's so real. Sorry, I digress again.

OK so people hate the goddam big fish, but what the hell, the fish are similar to the sand people in the original. They serve no real point but it's a mini adventure - a time out to crack open another beer. Maybe they didn't go exactly through the core, but it's a figure of speech. Just like Admiral Piet's "They could be on the other side of the Galaxy by now..." which is patently impossible to do in 20 minutes of course, it's just one of those things you say so that people will shut up and go away.

AHA! Jar Jar doesn't believe in the force either. GOOD! He gets a couple of points back.

Alright, I don't like how the jedis just appear at the right time for that lame battle in Piazza di Naboo. It's a little too quick. But the lightsaber tricks are fun to watch. Obi ones twirl again is good, and Qg's "slice, douse and in the holster" is a good trick. Like spinning... Yipee

Let's discuss that Naboo ship. It doesn't look like anything that I've seen in the last 25 years. So far nobody can accuse Lucas of copying anything (even himself.) It's all the little Star Wars things that I like. The feeling of being off your feet is still happening. Now we're back into space again already, (it's almost like mos Eisley...)

Obi One tells Jam-Jar to "keep out of trouble!" with 100% contempt. They won't even let the Greasy Frogboy out of the hold where they keep all the droids. Yeah, argue with that, Phantom haters!

Are the lasers fired directly at the ship cool? Yep. The droid fixers are cool too, especially when they get blown into space. That last one might be our hero Artoo, but who can know? But hooray, it's saved the ship!

QuiG doesn't take any shit, were going to Tatooine.

Darth Maul appears; obviously a super bad ass. When Senator Palpitations says "Maul" his voice slooowwws Doowwnn, nice touch. Remember, that's how they really talk in space.

OK, Artoo had to be introduced sometime. Guess we got that over with. We know he's gotta get into the story sometime. It is good it is him that saved the ship. And it's the first time anyone ever acknowledges that a droid even exists. Right on.

Nice that Watto talks like an Iraqi carpet seller. I suppose that's un PC again. Apologies to Iraqi carpet sellers then.

Naboobians are dying in thousands, but don't return this message, or they'll find ya and eat ya! This actually adds a little dimension to the feel of the story, but then I always liked those smoking skeletons of Auntie and Uncle also. (Did that get edited out of the super special eds??)

Let’s change the subject a little. People seem to stand up with indignation that Qui Gonn doesn't free the slaves. But think about it for one second. If some Frenchman showed up in Georgia in 1850 and said "This is unfair, I'm freeing all of you as of now," it just wouldn't have worked. If he had stolen a couple for "humanitarian reasons" it wouldn't have worked either. Hell, even implying that the American slavery should be kept in the south was enough to start a friggin war. It's an economic and physical impossibility to free those slaves. Star trek geeks believe in that non intervention rubbish, and why not here? How about this: Nobody can really own land, it's all mother earth, so we are giving all Australia back to the aborigines. It just can't work that way, you can't screw around with the big picture without big consequences.

Back to the plot. The fight with Darth Maul in the desert is pretty good. Who's gonna argue with me?

Coruscant is cool. Not like death star, not like blade runner. It's the first believable planet since the original Tatooine. Well maybe Cloud City Planet was OK too. But I like looking at it. It's a whole nother planet for christ sake!

I like Palpatine manipulating Amidala. He is a greasy bastard, about the equivalent of Motti and Tarkin. An equally pointless scene of course (just like on the Death star), but it drives the plot forward and it is gives me the Star Wars feel, same as that stupid meeting on the death star did.

Amidala saying goodbye to Annikin for Padme is not bad either, really.

On to the galactic senate. The senate is cool. I have been wondering about what this might look like. A big ass table a 10 miles long, or what? I couldn't figure how a billion planets could have a senate, and now George has this high tech solution. George, you're a friggin genius. What, when somebody says
something, are they supposed to walk up 100 stories to the podium? No, they just hover out into the middle in their expensive hover dish. If you really get pissed, you can crash your hover dish into the other dudes hover dish. Shut up asshole, I am talking! And Amidala is so sad. Who says what's-her-name can't act? And it's quite cunningly contrived really, how Palpatine weasels in. Are you telling me it's not believable?

OK, the 1st REALLY stupid part is that jedi temple. "You miss your mother" Yes, Yoda you are one perceptive guy. "What's that got to do with it?" damn straight, Annikin that's the fist smart thing anybody has said inside this pretentious temple. "Fear I sense..." No duh, a I'm six year old boy who just left his mother a slave on another planet about as far from Coruscant as possible, and I have put my fate in your ridiculous hands, and right now I'm thinking I fucked up big time and would be better off back in the desert. Yoda is more annoying than Jar Jar at this point. I think I liked him better when all he could do was purse his lips and grunt. The jedi's are a bunch of friggin jam tarts!

The republic no longer functions, says Amidala. Right on.

OK, back on Naboo it starts to suck. Except the gungan army is interesting, the beasts, the shield, etc. Not as good as Return of the King, but they are trying. Again I am going to say "at least it is different to all the other lame ass space movies".

However, I like the lightsaber fight. What is there not to like? No talking, just kicking ass, and I really like when Obi Wan gives Mr. Maul the evil eye, face to face over his saber. Maybe Obi shoulda used a bit more of the dark side right there, and really smacked Darth Maul down, but then again, maybe not.

All right, I am losing steam. It all does start to suck, but it only starts sucking now, 7/8ths of the way through the film. "We don't have time for this" says the Queen. Well what DO you have time for? As for the kid in the ship, if HE wasn't so lame it'd be cool. After all, he's been a pilot all his life, has the force BIG time, and he's a kid with no fear who just won a kick ass pod race.. Why not let him bust a move in that ship? It's Darth Vader for christ sake, he should be able to do SOMETHING out there in orbit!

"They win this round" says Amidala. This is IT, you stupid cow, this is the last round. The ref's at 9 and a half. How stupid is that? And Jar Jar is starting to piss me off too. But all this isn't my point.

My Point is this: Up to nearly the end, the movie has been mostly good. Sure Empire Strikes back looked kinda cool, but there was no story and the script was totally lame. TOTALLY! Phantom menace is much less lame, and much more Star Wars-ish than Empire ever was. At least it rolls forward at a fairly relentless rate. It has the "Star Wars Pace' down somehow. And so, it is the second best of those lame ass sequels or prequels. If you got up and just imagined the last 10 minutes, you’d have a winner.

PS. When you are telling me how wrong I am, try not to tell me how great Empire is. Solo became as boring and one dimensional as a truck driver, Leia lost all her fight, Luke watched too many episodes of “Kung Fu”, Yoda was a waste of time, I don’t understand why Lando was written into the story at all, and the script was written by someone who figured if you use words like “Nerf”, “Gundark”, and “Space Cruiser” it must be science fiction. Plus it was only half a movie, and the next half was absolute shite. And you can quote me.
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#2 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 03:05 AM

QUOTE (azerty @ Oct 2 2004, 01:30 AM)
Sure, Empire Strikes back looked kinda cool, but there was no story and the script was totally lame.

Actually, what it lacked was plot. It was all story. I'll argue that this was a good thing, although I agree that all the good story turns (Vader = Luke's father; There is another; Han is captured by Jabba the Hutt) were all ultimately undermined by the sequel. I'll use your argument about ignoring the last ten minutes of TPM: if you ignore JEDI, EMPIRE is a good movie. And it had the advantage that you could leave hoping the next film would live up to it. TPM had the disadvantage that even in your glowing analysis, it only works if you can excuse yourself before it's over ( = Not a strong case.)

QUOTE
Phantom menace is much less lame, and much more Star Wars-ish than Empire ever was. At least it rolls forward at a fairly relentless rate. It has the "Star Wars Pace' down somehow.


In my opinion, this is TPM's biggest failing: it has no story, and its plot serves a series of action set pieces that were more important than the story. In the end, there is nothign to care about, because the actors don't breathe any life into their characters, and because nothing is new.

Anyway, welcome to the conversation.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#3 User is offline   Garth Vader Icon

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 07:21 AM

I actually quietly enjoyed TPM up until they went to tatooine (I liked the opening scenes, obviously apart from jar jar, when they were on the spaceship with lightsabres fighting their way through, the invasion and when they went underwater, definately had a star wars feel to it.) After that, the film went downhill, the tatooine section is hopeless with the pod race and anakin as a five year old and all that.

The same thing with AOTC. Kamino was interesting, as was every scene with palpatine and the ending with clonetroopers lining up for the coming conflict. All the other stuff like anakins relationship with padme/obi wan (all mis-cast anyway), dialogue, c-3p0 and r2-d2's roles, coruscant lookin like manhatten at night and the boring jedi really took the film way down. It also had a plastic feel with all the digital cg shots of worlds, yoda and ever the stormtroopers.
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 07:22 AM

azerty -

Hmmm... you hate The Empire Strikes Back and you seem happy with blatant racist stereotypes. Forgive me if I don't care too much about your opinions.

Your point about Jar Jar Binks, that annoying people exist in the universe, is a good one. However, the problem is that the main characters brought him along everywhere they went for some unknown reason.

Lastly, your hatred of The Empire Strikes Back is the part of your thread that will lose most of your readers. When people are reading film reviews, they are more likely to take the reviewer's word if the reviewer has the same taste in movies.

For example, I hate Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. So if I know that a reviewer likes that film then I will not listen to their opinion on any film... because I know that what they look for in a film and what I look for are completely different things.

So it is here. With us, I feel that what you look for in a film are a few action set pieces and shiny things. Whereas what I look for in a film is a good story well-told, with characters I am interested in. I like the action and the shiny things too... but without a story behind them, they're meaningless.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 02 October 2004 - 07:25 AM

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#5 User is offline   Give Me The Originals Dammit Icon

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 12:49 PM

Well, I'm glad you got your money's worth from episode 1. I however didn't, since I like a debate just as much as anyone, I'll humor you on some of your points.



QUOTE
Those trade aliens? I like em! The japanese accents are a ballsy move, you gotta admit it - what else would you expect from dodgy trade federation types involved in some damn international trade blockade? Trade federation... why don't they just call those 2 Sanyo and Honda? George, you're a friggin genius. Han fired first, and that wasn't PC, and Japan is taking over space and that isn't PC either! Any way, they are as cool (so far) as Greedo ever was. Argue with that! The cheesy rubber masks are a plus, even if their lips don't move correctly. At least it aint CG. This is as much like real Star Wars as any movie I've seen so far in the last 20 years.


We first start with the blatant racism, you argue that han shooting first isn't PC, so that makes this blatantly racial shit acceptable, in a supposed kids movie no less. Two wrongs doesn't make it right! Here's a big difference however, Han was a rogue with redeemable qualities who acted in self defense. The Trade Federation has no redeemable qualities, so why would you want to attach a racial stereotype to it? Why not make them sound like used car salesmen or Geirge Lucas. As for the trade federation being as cool as greedo... Greedo actually engages Han Solo face to face, the trade federation uses droids who need binoculars, who have worse aim than a stormtrooper. Yeah real cool...



QUOTE
Those rolling droids appear. Are you not entertained?!

No. I find ir more interesting when the opponent is someone who is an equal or more powerful than a trained jedi master.

QUOTE
OK, Jar Jar is a wanker. But, (and this is IMPORTANT) OB1 and Qui Gonn think he is a wanker too, just like you do. "Get out of here!" and "Are you brainless?" spat out with complete contempt. They won't even LOOK at him. Here is the point: Not all aliens have to be cool you know, dorks might live out there somewhere too! But as long as they get no respect, that's fine by me. There might be too much sensitivity and sharing down here on earth, but in a galaxy far, far away, they obviously don't have to worry about that shit.


Yes jar jar sucks, but you don't make the damn annoying character a central figure in a damn movie! If he was as annoying as Qui Gonn thought he was, why bring him along?



QUOTE
OK so people hate the goddam big fish, but what the hell, the fish are similar to the sand people in the original. They serve no real point but it's a mini adventure - a time out to crack open another beer.


I'll agree, but the sand people lasted what 5 seconds? and the damn fish scene 10 minutes, what purpose did it serve other than to show off some more CGI? Aw I know, to give us some eye candy to take away from the crappy dialogue and story.

QUOTE
Obi One tells Jam-Jar to "keep out of trouble!" with 100% contempt. They won't even let the Greasy Frogboy out of the hold where they keep all the droids. Yeah, argue with that, Phantom haters!


Jar Jar gets out which makes this a ridiculous argument! Argue with that phantom lover.

QUOTE
Darth Maul appears; obviously a super bad ass.

He has cool moves, He kills a jedi master, he gets sliced in half... not as badass as he could have been.

How you cold even think PM is better than ESB is beyond me, even those who don't hate the prequels consider it one of the best in the series. Well you are entitled to your opinions. ESB did have a simple story, but it was executed well. Phantom had a good concept and was executed horribly.
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#6 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 03:29 PM

Well, again, I'm on the lighter side of prequel haters, would probably call myself a prequel "not like too much"er. As a regular movie compared to other movies, I'd probably give TPM **/****, AOTC **1/2. TPM was fairly entertaining at points, the beginning was cool simply because we actually got to see the Jedi at work for the first time ever, and yes, I will agree that Qui-Gon putting his lightsaber through the door was cool. But as for everything else, it really wasn't that good. The lightsaber fight was executed well as a choreographed duel, but not as an emotionally impacting duel, like the duels in ESB and ROTJ were (I think even JYAMG will admit that the duel in ROTJ is extremely well-done and full of tension). And there were a bunch of pretty sights. But there was no substance. As Civ said with ESB, yeah it didn't have that complicated a plot, but it had a great story, and that gave it substance. TPM is the opposite, with almost too much plot (why should I care whether this stupid planet with Gungans gets occupied by a Trade Federation with stupid leaders and childish battle droids?) and no story. Not to mention the fact that it is UNNECESSARY, and it really is because of TPM that AOTC wasn't good, since it really had to squish a lot of things into it that could have and should have been explained in TPM. It didn't advance anything, and the rest of the prequels suffer for it.

Oh and JYAMG, I don't think he hates ESB, I think he's just saying he doesn't understand why people think it's so great. I'll agree that I do think it moved pretty slowly at points, but it really is a beautifully done film, which is at times more art than it is entertainment, something which can make it good or bad depending on the mood you're in when watching it. But at the very least you have to appreciate how well it was done.

You see that, I'm actually defending ESB. Who'd a thunk it?

This post has been edited by Vwing: 02 October 2004 - 03:32 PM

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 06:41 PM

QUOTE
I think even JYAMG will admit that the duel in ROTJ is extremely well-done and full of tension.


With pleasure. I love the duel in Return of the Jedi. The duel in The Phantom Menace however is just big, loud and empty.


QUOTE
I don't think he hates ESB, I think he's just saying he doesn't understand why people think it's so great.


I don't know. Check out his juvenile criticisms of it throughout the review, for example -

QUOTE
Not like up to this point in Empire when the only thing that has happened is some stupid "Han old buddy" conversation about nothing and nothing squared. Or maybe they were lost in the snow - wake me up when they are rescued and we get some plot please... Sorry I digress.



Yep, this sounds like the type of guy I'd listen to. <- sarcasm
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 10:57 PM

"Get a beer" laugh.gif

Good Idea. When I get back the movie will be over. Yippee!

Jam-Jar: tongue.gif I liked that a lot.

Hoth was pretty believable. You can't bluescreen breath-frost. If you do, you're a moron, not a director.
I accepted Dagobah and bespin pretty well. AND the asteroid. and we saw the "Giant fish scare" for what, 3 seconds of realization (and steely command?)
I'll give you Yavin-4 was more mysterious because it wasn't crammed down our throats.

I'm glad you're with us, Azerty. But if you really stood by TPM, oughtn't this topic be titled "Why the Phantom Menace is a Verified Star Wars Classic?" Don't be so negative wink.gif
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#9 User is offline   azerty Icon

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 11:40 PM

Civilian number two is right, I do have plot and story confused. Never really thought about the differences until now, when I just looked up the definitions. Yeah I'm an ignorant bastard...

So Phantom Menace was all plot and no story, but Star Wars was (mostly all) plot and no story too. However, Star Wars was interesting enough to where you could imagine more story there than maybe actually existed. For example Uncle Owen and the Aunt only existed in order to be killed later and send Luke on his way. No motivation or anything behind them as personalities. Same with Jawas. They only exist to transport the droids to Luke. Same with Sand People. But for some reason we imagine that they are more interesting than Gungans, and Trade Federations. Now it's true that Solo had some personality, but I liked the fact that in Star Wars he was complex. (For example, he had a chess board on his ship, but except for the eye candy of holo-monsters beating each other up, the subject was never broached about why a guy who seemed unlikely to be interested in such an intellectual game would have something like that on board). You had to imagine as much or as little as you wanted. I think its the same with the Phantom Menace. You either write off Jar Jar and the Gungans as boring eye candy, or you wonder what's behind it all. I like Star Wars the best of the bunch, and Phantom is the movie that is the most similar Star Wars, and the least like it.

As for Lucas's blatant racism, remember that the only positive conclusion at the end of Phantom Menace, besides hooray we beat the bad guys, was that the humans and the Gungans became buddies and lived together happily ever after. As for Lucas's stereotypes, I like the fact that Phantom Menace didn't feel that strange American need to worry about not offending anyone every second of the day. Nobody worries about taking the piss out the British for instance, for being tea drinking upper class twits of the year, or the French for eating cheese and wearing berets and hanging around in cafes, and how do you offend an Australian? But take the piss out of some culture who you secretly believe isn't up for it and suddenly you've gone too far. Let's open up a can of hardener and take the piss out of everyone, all the time. Is Comic-Book-Guy on the Simpsons offensive to people who post exhaustive articles on the web about movies over 20 years old because by implication they are subhuman trolls too? We can take it. Didn't you like Fish called Wanda? Maybe not if you were English, American, Stupid, stuttered, or loved animals I guess.

Of course I don't hate Empire Strike Back, but I wonder what it was that everybody else saw that they think it is the best one of the bunch. Better even than Star Wars! The shiny stuff was cool, (asteroids, walkers, etc) but the characters turned into Cliff's notes versions of what they could have been. There's no subtlety to Solo, (In Star Wars was he a bad ass, or was he about to drop a load in his pants half the time? He blew Greedo away, but he was freaking out on the Death Star. Did he play chess on his day off? Is Chewie his dog or his partner?) In Empire he basically struts around like Will Smith did in Men in Black. I remember the actors saying in some interview back then something about them feeling more comfortable in their characters the second time around because they knew where they were coming from. That sounds like actor-speak for taking off all the awkward corners and becoming more one dimensional, making it simpler for the audience to grasp the core essence of the character without any annoying and confusing discrepancies. It's roughly the same for me with all the other characters in the movie. So for me, Empire's story wasn't very illuminating, and the plot didn't really go very far either. It just had cool spaceships, and a couple of battles, and the fact that Vader is Luke's dad. Nicely filmed of course. But not really a good story well-told with interesting characters. I guess it had Yoda, too, but he always sounded like Fozzie Bear to me, and I couldn't take him very seriously. That's an opinion, but here's a question. Can you like the Yoda of Clones and hate the Jar Jar of Menace simultaneously? Because to me the borders of irritability overlap.

Now in Phantom Menace, there were pointless diversions in the direction of the plot, but the characters always pushed forward and out the other side. But in Empire, the plot/story diverts and is then returned to the exact point again. On Hoth, why did Luke and Han get lost in the snow, only to be brought back to the base where they started? Why did the Falcon park in the belly of a space worm only to leave again with nothing changed? That used up as much time as the stupid giant fish, and was less fun to look at, and didn't go anywhere either. Ok Solo is in love with Leia, yeah I'd guessed that actually during Star Wars. Solo and Luke are good pals? Well I'd sort of gathered that too, when Solo came back to save his ass in the Death Star trench.
I kinda wanted the plot to push on and the story to be intricate. I'd waited 3 years by then, I ws told to wait three more. Even if it had been worth it, I still might of felt jipped.

The two things that I really cannot understand, even taking into consideration differing tastes etc. How ESB is better than Star Wars (I can't bring myself to call it ANH), and how Clones is better than Phantom? Because it must be so, the tomatometer told me so.
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Posted 04 October 2004 - 12:21 AM

azerty - please do not believe everything you read. Rotten Tomatoes are quite believeable, but not 100%. Return of the King got like 99% and I still claim the film sucks. Also a couple of other films I quite like got bashed here. Form opinions for yourself.

However, I was not entirely sure, whether you were serious sort of praising TPM. I loved the bit where you finally admitted the film sucks. I'd rather see your whole post as subtle irony and sarcasm. Sorry, but it did not make much sense too me otherwise. Liam Neeson believable as Jedi? That block of wood? Amidala Star-Wars like? In these ridiculous clothes and phony voice? Nope, it was not Star WArs and I was not entertained.

But as I say - everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
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Posted 04 October 2004 - 12:34 AM

Okay, I didn't quite understand your stance on The Empire Strikes Back the first time around. As for the idea of it being a story that doesn't go anywhere, you have to see it as part of an overall story. The problem is that Return of the Jedi didn't do anything with the situation its predecessor set up.

The rebellion was in ruins at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. This should have raised the stakes in the third movie because at that stage it would truly be their darkest hour. Yet, they're back with a lot more ships and fighters - seeming none the worse for their experience.

Luke really had his whole world turned upside down - his deepest beliefs had been challenged. Now this could have led to something interesting as well but instead he returns as a fully fledged Jedi knight (pretty much).

Yoda then just dies after confirming what we already knew and then tells him that he has to confront Vader if he wants to be a Jedi Knight. Which is funny. In the previous movie, confronting Vader would be bad. In this one, it's a mandatory assessment item in Luke's Jedi undergraduate course. Sounds like they were just figuring out a way to bring Luke and Vader to blows again.

Vader's changed too... becoming a softie and giving up his almost total control of the Empire, opting to be back on a leash as the Emperor's monkey boy.

And the intrigue of the other is conveniently wrapped up and taken care of by Obi Wan's revelation that the other is Luke's sister.... and rather than seeing a new character, we're just told that it's Leia and nothing comes out of it.

So if The Empire Strikes Back goes nowhere, it is solely the fault of Return of the Jedi. I like it because of its sweeping epic scope, powerful love story, many moving scenes and exciting set pieces.

The battle of Hoth is the most amazing conflict in the entire saga, in my opinion, as it felt the most real. The mad escape through the asteroid field was incredible - as were the events in Cloud City. Seeing Han and Leia realise their love for each other, only to be torn apart was very poignant and tragic. Seeing Luke's descent into a new world, losing all the innocence of his childhood, was equally powerful.

This installment of the saga put everyone through their paces, changing the characters and raising the stakes. Return of the Jedi however, just let it all slide for a commercial blockbuster with lots of feel-good cliches and an over-the-top upbeat ending.

QUOTE
On Hoth, why did Luke and Han get lost in the snow, only to be brought back to the base where they started? Why did the Falcon park in the belly of a space worm only to leave again with nothing changed?


The bit about Luke being lost in the snow was to facilitate the attack by the wampa creature.... which is used to explain what happened to Mark Hammil's face since the last movie. This was because the actor had been scarred in a car accident.

The Falcon parked in the Star Destroyer for two reasons - to give Han and Leia some quality time together and to make the Empire worry that they lost them. The latter is why Vader brought in the Bounty Hunters.

Lastly -

QUOTE
Can you like the Yoda of Clones and hate the Jar Jar of Menace simultaneously? Because to me the borders of irritability overlap.


I don't know. I hate them both.
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#12 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 12:57 AM

i was a bit throw off/unsure about the tone of the original post but you make some good points in the second one. its the generally held view that Empire is the best SW film but perhaps its time for someone to have a go and really rip it apart and expose its flaws. i`m fed up with the prequels being treated in such a way, whereas episodes 4 and 5 contain just as many (and in some cases worse) plot inconsistancies and problems. it annoys me how these films seem to have been cannonised as 12 carot classics, and as such have become untoucable. i`d like to see someone take it apart (i`ve not seen it in about 4 years though). anyway, you guys were talking about TPM....

edit- for example

QUOTE
As for the idea of it being a story that doesn't go anywhere, you have to see it as part of an overall story.


its interesting that JYAMG used this in defense of Empire. i agree with him, but how many times have you seen TPM fans shot down as mindless gushers when theyve tried to present this argument about `TPM in the overall story arc` themselves?

This post has been edited by jariten: 04 October 2004 - 12:59 AM

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#13 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 04:08 AM

QUOTE
"For example Uncle Owen and the Aunt only existed in order to be killed later and send Luke on his way. No motivation or anything behind them as personalities. Same with Jawas. They only exist to transport the droids to Luke. Same with Sand People. But for some reason we imagine that they are more interesting than Gungans, and Trade Federations."


Owen and his wife were kindly old people with their thoughts set on farming and living a quiet old life. They clearly contrasted with Luke and they obviously knew more about him than they were willing to say. This is made clear by how curious Luke is about his father when he meets Obi Wan. When they die we feel that Luke has lost his old life and this clearly effects him emotionally but also allows him license to go with Obi Wan.

The jawas are clearly motivated by greed and the sand people obviously have some problem with humans. If you're going to go claim that every character lacks motivation why not point out that none of the storm troopers or imperials describe why they do what they do?

QUOTE
As for Lucas's blatant racism, remember that the only positive conclusion at the end of Phantom Menace, besides hooray we beat the bad guys, was that the humans and the Gungans became buddies and lived together happily ever after.


But the Gungans sucked monkey dick so who cares. What precisely did they have that they felt elevated them above the humans? Slobber? The ability to send idiots into the planet core?(this is sad compared to interstellar travel) A fat leader? (comapred to Amidala) Glowing blue balls? (wtf!) And just when did we get the impression that the humans had any antipathy to the Gungans or knew that they existed at all? And why do the Gungans have an army anyhow? WHY THE FUCK DOES EVERYONE HAVE AN ARMY ***BUT*** THE REPUBLIC????????????????

And as for the scene in ATOTC I positively loved when Obi Wan went to the place where the cloners lived. Not so much when he went inside but just when he arrived and it was pouring rain. I do have to wander if Lucas even bothered to use a rain machine though...

QUOTE
Darth Maul appears; obviously a super bad ass


No. Just no. Darth Maul has fewer lines than Boba Fett and, hell, Fett at least had motivation. Why does Darth Maul want to kill Obi Wan and Qui Gon? Moreover how in the fuck did he get away with looking like that? I mean, come on, if there were only two of my kind left and we were being hunted by the Jedi I would not paint my face red and black.

As for what you said about the droids the award for R2 is completely insane because of how droids are expected to be treated. Let's face it ok, droids are bloody appliances. If you pin a ribbon on your computer when it downloads the most recent John Williams tune than I can imagine that you'd understand why Amidala did that. However for those of us who do not hold ceremonies in honor of our microwaves I think it's bullshit.

As for the duel it has no point. If you want the same experience than watch a boxing match. It's just two people fighting for no apparent reason with no real motivation to win that we know of. Imagine walking in to TPM for the first time during the duel. This is how the dialogue would go.

"What's going on? Oh, I see two guys in brown fighting a guy in black. Wonder what this is all about? Hmm... they're still fighting, this looks kinda cool I guess. Oh, the guy in black beat one of the guys in brown. Oh no, now he's fighting the other guy in brown! I wonder what's on the news tonight..."

Compare this with any duel in the OT where you can easily understand what is going on Via dialogue. Can you imagine watching the prequels if you were blind? Can you honestly say that there would be ANY point at all? But consider the OT and its interesting story arc, cutting dialogue and lovable characters. I would watch the OT even if I couldnt see it. It might take away some enjoyment but the movie would still be worthwhile. Not so for the PT.


In writing terms, Lucas is "Telling" rather than "Showing". This is, I think, the main problem with the prequels. Lucas takes shortcuts in character development to allow for CGI and then tries to make up for it by telling us about them. For instance, this is how the Han scene in ANH went originally:

Greedo: I am going to kill you unless you kill me first
Han: Too late, I already shot you.
Greedo: Agh...
Han: Check please.

The assumption we make is that Han is cool and calculating and he dosnt take shit. Now juxtapose that with how that scene would be handled now.

Han: HOLY FUCK THERES AN ARMY OF GREEDO CLONES! -A huge CGI battle lasts ten minutes and afterwards someone remarks that Han is cool and calculating-

Now do you see why it's best to show rather than tell? Telling people things works if its minimally and only when necessary. Also if you're going to tell people things it helps to have your reader/viewer's trust and say things that make sense. If someone is telling you something it's possible it's not true, but if you see it than it must be so and you can move on. For instance in the original Han scene the viewer is certain that Han is cool and calculating afterwards. But in the way it would be handled today we're not certain and have to look for other evidence to this effect, thus taking away from our enjoyment of the film.


You want to know why the battle of Hoth (and every one in the OT for that matter) was interesting? BECAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE IN IT! Not imaginary annoying aliens fighting imaginary annoying droids. Not imaginary annoying soulless clones fighting other imaginary annoying soulless droids. And what the hell were the fights over anyhow? In the OT the rebellion fought for their freedom, indeed their very survival. In the PT whoever it was that was fighting fought first to keep a planet from some people who wanted it (for some reason) and then they fought to keep secessionists from leaving (which is exactly what the empire was doing in the OT)

The more important thing is that the rebels were willing to die for what they believed in and none of the minor characters in the PT was. Hardly any gungans or Nabooans died. Nor did the attackers on Bespin (I mean, really, maybe a hundred Jedi died, that's not that much for a planetary conflict and all other casualties were soulles clones ) Remember the scenes in Star Wars and ESB where there were rebel soldiers dying in defense of their bases and a lot of tense times when the empire had to be held off at the expense of many lives? The PT lacked this basic human element of a star WARS. What I saw was closer to rockem sockem robots and while this might be exciting for those playing it it's not exciting to watch at all.

This may be a galaxy far, far away but you still have to touch on themes that are going to resonate with people right here. Death, love, search for self, regret, moral conflict etc. In the OT we have the stirring deaths of Obi Wan, Vader and various minor characters. We see that war leads to death and thus wish for this war to end. We see Han and Leiah's love unfolding well throughout the first two movies. We see that Leiah is unsure of her feelings and unstable and ONLY tells Han when she thinks she may never see him again. We see Luke trying to find out his destiny which is linked with that of his father, we see Obi Wan and Vaders and Landos regrets. Characters that had poor qualities lose those qualities and characters that had been unsympathetic gain our sympathy. And the bad guys gain our hatred.

In the PT we have only one death and no particular reaction to it. Rememnber in the ship after Obi Wan died how everyone was so subdued and walking on eggshells? After Qui Gon's death we get a party and glowing blue ball exchange. No. No. No. No. That is not how you behave after a main character dies. Shmi dies for unknown reasons with pointless last words and is then completely forgotten for the rest of the god damned movie. Hardly any minor characters die at all, especially not in TPM. Lucas -tells- us there may be thousands of casualties. Could he maybe have shown that there was suffering from the invasion? Did anyone really suffer at all in the PT (other than the viewer)

We get love in the form of a forced romance imposed on two actors and two characters with no chemistry and nothing in common by a silly director. We get Anakin not at all worried over the fact that his father is a single celled organism and only worried about gaining power. (what gave him this idea that he needs to become a great something or other? Where did this come from? I mean, really. Luke hated his existence on Tatooine and longed for adventure. Anakin was PERFECTLY happy on tatooine. He got into podracing, fought with sebulba, he had plenty of fun and adventures and a happy life with his mother despite apparently being slaves. Where was his motivation to leave on this quest to find himself and become a great Jedi? Noone in the PT ever seems to have any regrets at all except because of the death of Anakin's mother which was pure pointless plot device. A real death would have served much better if it had actually had something to do with anything at all. And when is there ever any moral conflict? Anakin AND Amidala see no problem with the sand people massacre. Noone has any problems with having snatched Anakin from his mother and put him into horrible danger.

It's been pointed out quite often that the use of CGI lacks something. Maybe it zigs when it should zag. Maybe things are just a little too perfect. Who knows. But it does nothing to beat the old use of real actual solid sets. Once again it comes down to showing and telling. CGI tells us what the director figures should be there and leaves us to fill in any problems. It also makes mistakes way easier. When you work with a solid model of, say, Corruscant, you'll figure things out like what would work and what wouldn't. For instance, in a blueprint of my room it looks like my computer desk could easily be positioned on the opposite wall from my bed but in an actual model one could realize that htis would make it impossible for me to operate my CD player while sitting at the computer.

And I have to say that if I were an actor I'd really like to feel like I was part of a story and not just some fucknut sitting infront of a sheet talking to myself. Anda characters movement is dictated by his or her surroundings. For instance, I have a certain way of moving in my room because I can see where all my furniture is but if my room was empty I'd run around just as I pleased. And let's face it, for the most part bluescreen CGi is only used for action sequences and rightly so. Lucas really should have stuck with actual material components instead of relying on computers.

You've heard me use the word soulless a lot and there's a point to that. The old Star Wars movies had a feel to them overall that was total and enveloping. Even the oft decried ROTJ had this soul to it. It was this spirit that connected the three films. They were all trying to work together in harmony and give the viewer the sense that they ahd jsut watched one six hour movie. They had a feeling to them that we all liked, rebellion, longing to find adventure and find who we are, wanting to uncover mysteries, and maybe, in redeeming others, redeem our own souls as well.

The prequels are in essence flawed because they don't seem to have the possibility to contain any of these themes in any of the movies, much less throughout the trilogy. The movies could have been about the temptation of evil, power and greed. They could have been about man's struggle against evil. They could have been about how even in darkness that looks undefeatable there can still be a glimmer of hope. They could have been about how good people react when evil comes to rule. These are themes that people could enjoy and feel. But there is no struggle against evil, there is no sign of stress and perseverance in the heroes. We don't see the Jedi becoming increasingly overwhelmed, rather we're just told that they are. Lucas, if you're just going to tell me what happens than don't even bother making a damned movie.

Hoffman, over and out.

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#14 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 04:43 AM

theres so many things in that post i want to disagree with i dont know where to start. it was a good read though.
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Posted 04 October 2004 - 05:55 AM

A good post, J M. I'm just going to respond to something Jariten said though -

QUOTE
QUOTE 
As for the idea of it being a story that doesn't go anywhere, you have to see it as part of an overall story. 



its interesting that JYAMG used this in defense of Empire. i agree with him, but how many times have you seen TPM fans shot down as mindless gushers when theyve tried to present this argument about `TPM in the overall story arc` themselves?


It's not really interesting. The Empire Strikes Back stands on it's own grounds as a great film. I don't give a stuff that the story wasn't finished properly... that's Return of the Jedi's fault and I'll take out my frustrations on that film.

The Empire Strikes Back did its part.

Episode I and Episode II however, did nothing (in my humble opinion of course).
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