[Just your average movie goer]

Regarding your persistence about the Death Star, exploding planets and being on the wrong side of the planet....

if you keep it up, you will force me to explain it to you with diagrams.

its wrong to critisize the PT for having inconsistancies etc. while ignoring the fact that the same glaring faults exist in the OT.

I'm sorry - but there's no comparison. The faults in the prequels are on a magnitude so very much worse than anything wrong in the original films.

[Give Me The Originals Dammit]

I'll agree up to a point with you Jariten.

the point i was originally trying to make is that its wrong to critisize the PT for having inconsistancies etc. while ignoring the fact that the same glaring faults exist in the OT.

For me it's not the inconsistancies, but rather the amount of them. I criticize the PT because the inconsistancies don't stay in the realm of the prequels, but bleeds into the OT as well. For example, midichlorians... I hate midichlorians! Throughout the entire OT the force is this powerful mystical thing, all of a sudden in Episode 1 we have a psuedo-scientific explanation for the reason why people are able to use the force. Why didn't Obi-Wan or Yoda tell Luke he had little critters in his blood, instead of giving him some metaphysical explanation? Midichlorians annoy me to no end. Also C-3PO, there is no way I can accept Darth Vader built C-3PO. It's like he was added just so he could be in the PT. I don't know about you, but I would have been perfectly fine not seeing him at all in the PT. Not that I dispise him or anything, but think ANH is the perfect introduction for him. We don't need to have the old characters in the prequels just for the sake of having them in PT. Anyway I think I may have gotten a bit off subject there, sorry.

In closing I think I'll try to explain why Han didn't pay off Jabba the Hutt at the end of ANH, granted this is going to be a half assed try.

Han is something of a gambler so instead of rushing off to pay him perhaps he got involved with some high stakes games. Those Rebels have to do something to pass the time. Anyway it's never really proven he's a good gambler, and him winning the Millenium Falcon was pure luck from what I can gather. So all of a sudden he hasn't got enough money to pay Jabba back, He sticks around with the Rebels because he likes the comaderie, and all of a sudden he starts believing in it's cause. Well I'm sure being in the military the pay sucks, so it took him a few years to save up enough to pay Jabba back, but by the time he does it's to late. Of course this is all speculation, but I like it.

[jariten]

in all seriousness JYAMG, the things i posted (alderaan, death star and yavin, why did they continue to yavin when they knew they were being tracked etc.) have been bugging me for years so if you could clear any of them up for me it might help me appreciate the film a bit more.

[HK 47]

the Death Star could not possibly have been out of range of an exploding planet, which wouldve been bombarded by huge huge chunks of planet hitting it at insane velocities. and no, a magnetic field could not repel rock.

Uh, maybe you need to go to a science forum instead. Since you are obviously aware of the exact functions of the Death Star magnetic fields... Jariten I wasn't being all that serious with the explanation hence the and "far-fetched fanboy version" comment. I am being serious now however: If you want realism, why don't you start from the top: 1. Spaceships make no sound in space. 2. Nothing can travel faster than light. etc. Get me? Why couldn't Star Wars magnetic fields repel rock? Besides, we all know the Death Star has Tractor Beams!

1. Alderaan. Think that's been covered...
2. Perhaps the moon was moving clockwise around Yavin, and it would be faster for the Death Star to meet it head on rather than chase it? Gotcha!
3. They didn't know, Leia suspected it but in the end they had no choice, they had to deliver the plans. Besides Han was being his typical self-assured, persuasive self: "Easy, you call that easy!?"

If this is the best you can come up with I can only say this: "Surely you can do better!"

This post has been edited by HK 47: 05 October 2004 - 03:05 AM

[jariten]

a few pages ago, helena was trying to critisise TPM and my defence of it was that we arnt given enough information in the film to be able to assertain that it was an inconsistancy, and just from the events/dialogue in the film (and a little bit of leeway for Lucas) it was perfectly possible to see that it was a wholly believable scenario (from my side at least, Helena held a different view)

I think the same is happening here, with me on the offensive. right then.

1. Spaceships make no sound in space. 2. Nothing can travel faster than light. etc. Get me? Why couldn't Star Wars magnetic fields repel rock? Besides, we all know the Death Star has Tractor Beams!

magetic fields do not repel rock. and why on earth (now that i think of it) didnt the death star have a good shield in place that not only couldve withstood the blast of an exploding planet (underlined so that were all reminded about what were dealing with) but couldve easily have been shoved infront of the rebels faces and seen them off no trouble?

2. Perhaps the moon was moving clockwise around Yavin, and it would be faster for the Death Star to meet it head on rather than chase it? Gotcha!

again, would it really have been so difficult to figure out where Yavin 4 was, then plot a tragectory that wouldve put them in shooting range as soon as they came out of light speed?

3. They didn't know, Leia suspected it but in the end they had no choice, they had to deliver the plans. Besides Han was being his typical self-assured, persuasive self: "Easy, you call that easy!?"

she did know. she sounded at least sure enough so that, even if Han was stupid enough not to want to even check, she couldve done it herself. then they couldve destroyed it easily, or at the very least swapped ships.

for my general safety, id like to point out that i do like this film rather a lot. it started out as me asking for a bit of fair treatment of the prequels, but like every other thred i post in, turned out like this

[Just your average movie goer]

I'd like to add if these things really bug you, why do you like these films in the first place? If enough things irritate me in a film, I wouldn't watch it again, no matter how entertaining the rest of it was.

[jariten]

its not enough to ruin the enjoyment of them because i know its done for dramatic purposes or to make the narrative flow better or whatever and because i know you have to suspend this and that while watching these films

[Just your average movie goer]

magetic fields do not repel rock. and why on earth (now that i think of it) didnt the death star have a good shield in place that not only couldve withstood the blast of an exploding planet (underlined so that were all reminded about what were dealing with) but couldve easily have been shoved infront of the rebels faces and seen them off no trouble?

I don't care about the magnetic fields. Perhaps all those turrets on the Death Star could have blasted any debris that looked likely to hit it. Maybe it did cop a lot of surface damage... and we just couldn't see it because we were mostly looking at it in its entirety from a distance away.

Lastly, you may have a point here. But the level of disbelief I have to suspend here isn't too great. The level of disbelief I have to suspend for things like Qui Gon willingly taking Jar Jar with him everywhere or Anakin falling 500 feet, catching onto a speeder, yet retaining both of his arms (they should have been torn clean off).... well, the level of disbelief here is astronomical. For me, suspending THAT much disbelief was an impossible task. In addition to this, there is no reward for suspending the disbelief.

In Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back, if you let the implausable slide and you suspended disbelief, you were rewarded with rich stories that were really entertaining. In the prequels, if you suspended disbelief, you were only treated to stupid hopelessly contrived plots about uninteresting characters and a support cast that was entirely CGI. Not interested.

again, would it really have been so difficult to figure out where Yavin 4 was, then plot a tragectory that wouldve put them in shooting range as soon as they came out of light speed?

I really don't think the Death Star had lightspeed capability, mate. It was always crawling on the screen and when they were orbiting Yavin, the guy on the communicator told Tarkin "We are orbiting the planet at maximum velocity."

They took the most direct route. The moon with the rebel base happened to be around the other side of the planet when they got there. There was no way they could have got in firing range faster than they did.

Please don't make me resort to the diagrams, Jariten. Because that would just be really childish and I don't want to do that.

she did know. she sounded at least sure enough so that, even if Han was stupid enough not to want to even check, she couldve done it herself. then they couldve destroyed it easily, or at the very least swapped ships.

The dialogue went like this ->

Han - Not a bad bit of rescue. You know sometimes I amaze even myself.

Leia - That doesn't sound too hard. They let us go. It's the only explanation for the ease of our escape.

Han - Easy? You call that easy?

Leia - They're tracking us.

Han - Not this ship, sister.


You can read what you want in that. But seeing Han later said

"Look, I ain't in this for your revolution and I'm not in it for you, Princess. I expect to be well-paid. I'm in it for the money."

it seems that even if he did think they were being tracked, he wouldn't care. He just wanted to drop Leia off and pick up his reward.

[jariten]

I really don't think the Death Star had lightspeed capability, mate

come on, it must have. theres no other feasible way you can travel the astronomical distances required for space travel otherwise.

i see what you mean about Han, but that doesnt explain why Leia didnt do something about it. and was that piece of exposition required anyway? hadnt the tracking thing already been noted by Tarkin?

[Just your average movie goer]

I find it harder to imagine that they could build an engine into that thing big enough and powerful enough to push its heavy mass through hyperspace.

Am I alone in this? Personal opinions, anyone -

Did the Death Star have lightspeed capablity?

1. YES

2. NO

[Madam Corvax]

Gee, guys, I cannot believe it. Are you seriously discussing science aspects of a Science FICION film? Look, it is all fiction. It has nothing to do with reality. If you are interested in technicalities of real spaceships, perhaps NASA has a forum somewhere.

You just cannot seriously discuss something that is a fiction in the first place. Why not discuss how a lightsabre is constructed? Why not mention infmaous Han's line that Falcon can fly to Corella or somewhere else in "less than 3 parsecs" or something like that (parsec is a distance, and connected to OUR galaxy, come to that, how could they know what a parsec is?) Can't you see it is added only to get the slight feeling that we are speaking technology here? It is what a flavour is to the cake, not even raisins - not necessary, but adds nice touch.

I have majored in Physics and I just cannot take seriously "the hyperspace", "ion cannos", "hyperdrive units" ect.

So, andswering JYAMG questions - I do not care is Deatch star has speedlight capability. It never occured to me to even think about it. I care about romance, heroism, good and bad guys.

[HK 47]

Jariten... little padawan. Do tractor beams repel rock? Do thousands of turbolasers repel rock? I shouldn't have gotten into it. How you can even linger on this is beyond me. And it's still funny how you ignore the gist of a post and focus on a detail you can counter.

As for Death Star lightspeed JYAMG, it's pretty fast...

Imperial Lightspeed capabilities

[Just your average movie goer]

No, I wasn't taking that stuff seriously, guys. But Jariten wanted to play pick a fault with the originals and I was just indulging him. Does the Death Star have lightspeed capablities? Maybe, maybe not. I don't really care. I just couldn't believe someone thought these points were even worth mentioning... however, while I know Jariten is doing it to make a case, it just isn't a very good one.

[civilian_number_two]

Come on, jar: the Death Star was designed to blow up planets. Either it has defences that will shield it from the effects of its handiwork, or the force of whatever comes out of that gun pushes the debris away from the source, or it's a one-shot deal. Amidala falls from a speeder onto sand and does not die, and you want me to worry about the Death Star not getting hit by rocks. Why do you even like STAR WARS? Why not rent QUIZ SHOW instead? It's fucking excellent, and it has no physical impossibilities of any kind!

PS: I suspect if you blew up a planet some pieces may fly clear, but the majority would retain the orbit the planet originally had, with different velocities dependent on mass.

PPS: You're right about the tracking device. That bugged me as a nine-year-old. I was like "Why don't they go to a new space bar and get a new pilot and ship? I know they want to stop the Death Star blowing up more planets, but what's the hurry?" (You see, when I first saw STAR WARS, I considered Han Solo expendable since he was only a mercenary and not a commited rebel like Luke or Leia). Lucky for them they actually found a weakness in those plans, because if they hadn't, they were hooped.

PPPS: all the same, the tracking device could as easily have been under Leia's skin, the unexpected side-effect of the torture. It was a plot device; now I pay it no mind.

PPPPS: Something I can't let go is how the Trade Federation had a big gun inside their spaceship hangar, designed apparently to blow up ships INSIDE THE HANGAR! They blew up Qui-Gon's ship while it was docked inside their hangar! That's crazy! And then when they actually needed the gun, to stop the tiny little fighter that apparently landed right next to the ship's main engines, or whatever, that are located in the hangar right next to that big fucking gun, the Trade Federation don't use it! They do react to the intrusion, so it's not like they're caught flat-footed: they send droids and similarly useless little gnats to try to take the litte ship out. They just forget they have this BFG hanging right off in the background. I mean, I understand the need for a gun, if the ship's weak spot is right there inside the hangar, but then why not use the gun when you need it?

PPPPPS: I really meant that about QUIZ SHOW. It's excellent.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 05 October 2004 - 11:11 AM

[jariten]

i saw quiz show on dvd last year i think and youre right its great. wouldnt mind watching it again in fact.

i have absolutly no interest in the mechanics and the `science` of SW and in fact to create a science where theyre clearly isnt one in the first place just strikes me as being a totally mental exercise. i actually flicked through the rubbish `incredible cross sections` book for TPM to see if any of the ships had toilets. AND THEY DIDNT.

i didnt mean to get dragged into a debate about the death star but the yavin thing is an inconsistancy in the story but it serves the story (it gives time for the rebels to destroy it). likewise, so does padme falling out of the ship in clones (prompts the biggest argument in the film, highlighting the rift in anakin between duty and the un jedi like emotion that he cant quell) and so does the podrace- which demanded a set up (and inclusion. i know a lot of you hate the podrace but we get to see- 1. anakins ability 2. anakins altruism 3. anakins drive to escape 4. a cool set piece- and dont underestimate the importance of that in SW) which might require us to fill in a couple of blanks here and there, but no more than we did with the OT.

anakin leaps out of the speeder and does the impossible, but theres something almost everyday about it- like these kind of amazing acts are part of the jedis daily life. i know no one here can suspend their disbelief that far, believe that anyone could do that, but isnt that kind of the point?