[Just your average movie goer]

some smokers - not all, but some - have no idea quite how unpleasant others find it to be around people who are smoking.

On the other hand, most smokers find that non-smokers have no idea how unpleasant it is when they consistently complain about those who smoke.

Heccubus, I'd say the complaint of non-smokers is FAR MORE VALID than the complaint of smokers that you refer to.

I'd like to use my aerosal spray can analogy again. Imagine that I was to go around spraying aerosol down people's throats. I'd say, just for the sake of the argument, that this made me feel calm. It was something I enjoyed. My choice.

And then people started complaining to me that it bothered them when I sprayed aerosol down their throats.

Would I really have any right to complain about hearing that?

EXACTLY.

Helena said it so right before. Nobody forced you start a disgusting habit that is harmful to your health and the health of those around you.

We don't want to breathe in your smoke. We shouldn't have to breathe in your smoke. For the love of God, please don't smoke around other people.

And YES - you should go out of our way if your smoking. We shouldn't have to ask.

I hope you put out your cigarette if somebody asks you, Heccubus. Right?

[Helena]

This is precisely what I was trying to say. Luckily I'm not asthmatic like JYAMG, but I still end up coughing and choking whenever I breathe in other people's smoke, and the smell makes me feel sick. Most non-smokers feel this way, so how can you blame us for complaining about it?

I don't think that smokers are 'bad people' either, but this 'us against the rest of the world' attitude that many smokers seem to adopt is precisely why many people do think this. Does it not occur to you guys that the way you're behaving is extremely selfish? No one needs to smoke; plenty of people (myself included) manage to get through extremely stressful periods without the help of cigarettes. Basically, what people who smoke around others are saying is 'my pleasure is more important than your health and comfort', and it's hardly surprising that people view this kind of attitude as antisocial.

[Just your average movie goer]

You summed that up perfectly for me, Helena. Thank you.

[Melissa]

I'd like to use my aerosal spray can analogy again.  Imagine that I was to go around spraying aerosol down people's throats.  I'd say, just for the sake of the argument, that this made me feel calm.  It was something I enjoyed.  My choice


And then people started complaining to me that it bothered them when I sprayed aerosol down their throats.

Would I really have any right to complain about hearing that?

EXACTLY..

What a ridiculous analogy! I don't go stuffing cigarettes in people mouths or breathing smoke down their throat.
Smokers aren't maniacs that go around trying to poison people. Do you drive a car? Use buses??

I hope you put out your cigarette if somebody asks you, Heccubus.  Right?

I don't know about heccubus but if i was outdoors, minding my own business and somebody asked me to put out my cigarette i would refuse. If my smoke was blowing in they're faces i'd move no problem.

[Heccubus]

Where do I begin? First of all, if you think smoking is doing damage to the atmosphere, you should also be protesting most methods of transportation, manufacturers, the use of most electronic appliances, and a whole slew of other things. Including aerosol cans, which release atmosphere-damaging chemicals each time they are sprayed.
Much like Melissa said, if someone came up to me while I was smoking outside, the only place you're allowed to smoke outside of bars around here, and told me to put it out because they didn't like the smell, I'd tell them to take a hike. If they simply asked if I could please move, I'd be more than happy to oblige...if they were there first. If I'm smoking at someone's house, I ask if it's okay before lighting up.
If nobody forced me to start, why do others feel that they should be able to tell people to quit? Why do others have the right to tell those of us who smoke that we're wrong? My point isn't the validity of your complaints, they're your opinion and in that they're perfectly valid, but I don't appreciate it when someone starts marching around telling me that I'm wrong and how horrible smoking is.

To construct your computer, people all over the world are forced to work at low wages to piece parts together. To make the clothes you wear, women are forced to sit at sewing machines for 12 hours a day with only one fifteen minute bathroom break for the entire shift. I went through a phase in high school where I was firmly opposed to the tobacco industry. I was a supporter of an organization known as Truth, that works to spread word of the evils of tobacco and the industry that supports it. I know all about that stuff. The end product is that I just don't care anymore. Some people smoke, some don't. Some non-smokers are polite, and will kindly ask you to move, or quietly move themselves depending on who was there first. Others feel it necessary to preach. Guess which group I don't like.

[Melissa]

Totally agree with everything you've just said heccubus. We have the same laws here in ireland. No smoking in places of work, and i'm totally for it. I don't mind having to go outside for a cigarette. It's my non smoking friends who are stuck inside on their own that aeem more bothered by it.
I think i'm a considerate smoker. I'd never light up in somebodys house if they had a problem with it, i'd never smoke around children but its happened to me before where i've been outside smoking when a lady wheels her buggy up beside me. What am i expected to do in this situation? Stub out my cigarette. Maybe its the mother who should be judged in this case rather than the smoker.

[Amber-Nicole]

Personally, I don't have a problem with smokers, or consider them bad people. I just think it's a nasty habit. It's not healthy, it smells horrible, it makes my allergies flare up. I could never hang out with a smoker, or date one. That's just because it grosses me out. I'm the same way about anyone who has a nasty addiction to alcohol, or anything else that's unpleasant like that. Not that I'm always against alcohol. It's okay now and then, and I do have friends who smoke now and then, and manage to not be addicted to the stuff. But when the stuff is a consant habit, and the smell is always there, it just doesn't smell very hygenic. So I choose to avoid chain smokers, when possible. And as for getting the stuff banned. That'll never happen. I would say that the best way to dissuade smokers would be to tax the hell out of cigarettes, so that the habit becomes too expensive. But addiction doesn't care how much something costs, and you will always have people out there who can afford the stuff. And if the goverment can tax something, they're happy. It's all about the money.

[Helena]

Where do I begin?  First of all, if you think smoking is doing damage to the atmosphere, you should also be protesting most methods of transportation, manufacturers, the use of most electronic appliances, and a whole slew of other things.  Including aerosol cans, which release atmosphere-damaging chemicals each time they are sprayed.

The main point about smoking is not that it damages the atmosphere - although it very probably does - but that passive smoking dangerous to people's health. As for transportation, electrical appliances etc. damaging the atmosphere, of course this is true - but these things are necessary in most people's everyday lives, because they have practical uses. Cigarettes aren't and don't.

Much like Melissa said, if someone came up to me while I was smoking outside, the only place you're allowed to smoke outside of bars around here, and told me to put it out because they didn't like the smell, I'd tell them to take a hike.  If they simply asked if I could please move, I'd be more than happy to oblige...if they were there first.  If I'm smoking at someone's house, I ask if it's okay before lighting up.

Good. I wish everyone were as considerate as you, but the fact is that a lot of people aren't. Smoking outside a bar is one thing, because there's no particular reason for people to stand there with you if they don't want to, but there are situations - waiting for a bus, for example - where it's very hard to avoid standing near people who are smoking. The reason I don't ask people to put their cigarettes out in this situation is because in 90% of cases I'd just get told to fuck off.

If nobody forced me to start, why do others feel that they should be able to tell people to quit?  Why do others have the right to tell those of us who smoke that we're wrong?  My point isn't the validity of your complaints, they're your opinion and in that they're perfectly valid, but I don't appreciate it when someone starts marching around telling me that I'm wrong and how horrible smoking is.

We're not telling you to quit - at least, I'm not. Personally I don't give a damn whether you smoke or not, as long as you don't do it near me.

To construct your computer, people all over the world are forced to work at low wages to piece parts together. To make the clothes you wear, women are forced to sit at sewing machines for 12 hours a day with only one fifteen minute bathroom break for the entire shift. I went through a phase in high school where I was firmly opposed to the tobacco industry. I was a supporter of an organization known as Truth, that works to spread word of the evils of tobacco and the industry that supports it. I know all about that stuff. The end product is that I just don't care anymore. Some people smoke, some don't. Some non-smokers are polite, and will kindly ask you to move, or quietly move themselves depending on who was there first. Others feel it necessary to preach. Guess which group I don't like.

Speak for yourself. I try not to buy things that have been made with slave labour if I can possibly avoid it. If you're trying to convince us that you're not a bad person, admitting to attitudes like this is not going to do you any favours.

[civilian_number_two]

Just before I stopped going to bars altogether, they banned smoking in bars and restaurants. A lot of people, myself included, went apeshit about PC thought police and how this was going to kill these businesses since a lot of their clientele smoked. where I live, some neighbourhoods had to follow the new by-law and others didn't, and you could see a drastic reduction for the non-smoking establishments, corresponding to a mild increase for the others. Now that everything is evened out and the bylaw is there for all areas, people still go to bars and restaurants. On the plus side: if I do go to a bar, I don't come home reeking of smoke; I haven't had to buy a new shirt just because some dumb fuck bumped into me at a concert with a lit cigarette in hand; even private parties, where no bylaw could be enforced, eventually adopted the unspoken rule that smoking is for the patio and backyard.

I'm happy to go int a restaurant now and not be asked "smoking or non?" The fiction that if you sat three feet away from the smoking table, there would be an invisible barrier protecting you from secnd-hand smoke(that's smoke that's been in someone else's mouth), this was always ridiculous. And in the wake of all this, the tobacco industry is still doing fine; I can't pass a high school wihout seeing a huge cluster of kids atnding around outside with cigarettes. Why they start up, I have no idea. I was around in the era of acid wash, and just because everyone bought them didn't mean I had to. I knew it was a stupid ugly style and stayed away. Peer pressure as a social phenomenon eludes me.

True story: I was at a party and this real violent ex-navy guy with a scar from his neck to his belly (he had his shirt off) offered me a cigarette when I stepped outside to get some air. He had a buddy with him, and these were two of the orneriest rednecks I have ever met. I am not making this up; it went like this:

Me: No thanks, I don't smoke.
Redneck: What the fuck is that,"I don't smoke." Take it.
Me: I'll take it if you like, but I'm not going to smoke it.
Redneck: I bet you $100 I could break your jaw before you could even lay a finger on me.
Me: How's that work? You break my jaw, I give you $100? Yeah, I'm not going to take that bet.
Pause
Redneck: You're all right. Let me know if anyone here's bugging you, and I'll take care of him for you.
Me (pointing to his friend): This guy's been kinda pissing me off, if you need to know.
Laughs all round

So yeah, I know some kids got pressured into it, and some others just want to hang out with the kids in the smoking pit, but seriously! What the fuck!

------------------

Anyway, cigarette smokers by and large are a challenged minority, and it's not like they're out to get anyone or are total assholes about it, for the most part. It's the cigar smokers, who try to make out like their smelly habit has something to do with libertarianism and the bygone days of laissez-faire, who act like it's the holy grail to get embargoed cigars from Cuba (yet don't realize they could easily buy them in Canada), and who read and write for CIGAR AFFICIONADO, the creepiest over-the-counter fetish magazine this side of Larry Flynt. Those are the creeps I have no time for.

[Ninja Duck]

If nobody forced me to start, why do others feel that they should be able to tell people to quit?

I like that philosophy.

Actor #1: I like killing people. I like the feeling I get when the blood from their freshly stabbed necks courses out all over me.
Actor #2: I don't know if I'm comfortable with that, man... Maybe you should stop it.
Actor #1: Why do you say that? You have no right to say that. You didn't force me to start. You can't tell me to stop!

Sorry, I couldn't resist picking on that one point. Now, on to my quasi-on-topic question:

I have asthma too, and although it isn't nearly as bad as it was when I was younger, I still have trouble breathing at night if I forget to take any medicine. So one night, as I was laying there struggling to breathe, I wondered what would happen if I had an asthma attack as I sleep. Would the low oxygen level in my blood wake me up, or would I croak because I wouldn't have enough oxygen to become conscious?

[Amber-Nicole]

I never knew you had asthma, Zach.

[Just your average movie goer]

I think Helena, Civilian and Ninja Duck covered most of what I wanted to say to your replies, Heccubus and Melissa. Regarding my analogy of spraying aerosol down people's throats, if you didn't get it, then I'm sorry. It seemed pretty straightforward to me.

The way you two are vigorously defending your rights to smoke is terrible. You have adopted a filthy antisocial habit. You knew it was a stupid habit. You knew it was addictive and you adopted it anyway. You don't have any cause for complaint if your habit is criticised.

You and Melissa are trying to turn yourselves into martyrs -
"Oh, the non-smokers are so inconsiderate of us."

Newsflash - the smokers who feel that they have the right to interfere with other people's health and wellbeing are the ones who are the inconsiderate party.

You also mentioned things like how if you're outside and you smoke near other people, that's not a problem. What's that? If you smoke outside, the secondhand smoke magically disappears? Other people still end up breathing it.

I'm pretty sure from your attitude on the subject that you'll only quit when hell freezes over. But at least, at least, be considerate enough not to smoke near other people.

Regarding the idea of people coming up to where you are and asking you to put out your cigarette, in theory I think you're okay to say you don't want to. However, it depends on where you are.

If you're at the bus stop, put it out. Other people have to wait for the bus too. And the same goes if you're at the only available outdoor hangout at your workplace, etc.

You want to get into a rights argument with me? Here's the rundown...

Smokers choose to use a poisonous addictive substance that has no benefits, actually raises your blood pressure (defeating the argument of it making you feel calm) and affects the health of other people around you.

Non-smokers don't want to use a nasty substance that affects not only them, but other people as well.

If there was a neutral third party, which side do you think they'd take?


And don't give me that rubbish about the pollutants of transportation, etc. Transport gets people from A to B and is a very important part of the running of our society. Smoking does... well, nothing good. For shame, Heccubus.


Now, what you are doing is falling into a very bad category of smokers. Smokers who feel that they have the right to get defensive when their habit is criticised.

You enjoy smoking - fine. But how dare you defend it as if it was some human right?


Just say "It's not good, I know. It's a guilty pleasure of mine. But I do try my best never to smoke around other people."

In my life I've encountered some smokers who when I ask them to be a little more considerate of the people around them, threaten to beat me up. With all due respect, these people are too mentally unstable to be doing their own thinking.

I really, really hope, Heccubus, that you are not one of those people.

Knowing that you smoke will not diminish my respect of you. But your argument that you have some kind of right to smoke and nobody has the right to tell you to stop will.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 25 September 2004 - 08:39 PM

[Jane Sherwood]

JYAMG...I could hug you for all of that.

Not only do I have personal issues with anything that makes me feel sick in any way simply by trying to breathe, but several of my friends and family members smoke as well. And that alone makes me feel awful.

My best friends smoke, one of my brothers smokes, just about everyone in my extended family (that I've met) smoke, and even my father used to smoke before I was born (thank god my mother made him quit). It just makes me simultaneously sick and horrified that they can sit there and slowly kill themselves with these things, and they don't even seem to care. What's worse is that while I don't see my family enough for them to realize it, my friends are fully aware of what I think of smoking, and how I physically react to it, but still do it anyway (although, to their credit, they either don't do it near me, or apologize about it). Not only do I have an unbelievably strong sense of smell, but I also have absolutely awful allergies and it's hard enough for me to breathe as it is most of the time. I can smell someone smoking before I'm even near them, and it takes no time before I'm choking, dizzy, and nauseous. I've had smoke blown in my face, ash flicked at me, and even been burned by people who think it's all right to smoke in large crowds. I remember one time when I was little, my family went out to eat and there were no tables left in the non-smoking section, so instead of waiting my dad took one in the smoking section. We were there about twenty minutes before he got pissed off at me and took us all home. You see, I couldn't stop coughing or catch my breath, so I kept pulling my shirt collar up over my face like a "gas-mask" to keep out the clouds (yes, clouds) of smoke around us because I just. Couldn’t. Take it...but then again, I used to do the same thing at church when the burnt incense...

What is the appeal? What makes a person want to start doing something like that? I know people who will proudly stand up and say that they've been smoking since they were ten or younger! Why? Why do you do it when you know how bad it is for you and the people around you? How do you derive some kind of physical pleasure from something so disgusting (not to mention unhygienic)? I remember being forced to take part in the (pointless, as it turns out) D.A.R.E program throughout elementary school, I remember learning about what cigarettes do to people...and I remember seeing someone smoking through a hole in their throat...and hearing about family members who died from smoking. I hate it.


(...Sorry if all that doesn't fit together properly or sound quite right after a while. I tend to get distracted when I try to do long argument posts like this and jump a bit.)

[Just your average movie goer]

Jane, you are most welcome. Thank you for lending your support. I really do sympathise with you for having a father who'd actually take you to the smoking section of a restuarant. Those things are just horrible - when all that smoke is just trapped in the small space and accumulating. That is just truly horrible.

I've had smoke blown in my face, ash flicked at me, and even been burned by people who think it's all right to smoke in large crowds.

Yeah, I've been burned by people's cigarettes too. I'm glad you brought that up, Jane. It's one of the other things that people seem to forget. Cigarettes are a bit of a fire hazard. I seem to remember Heccubus having a go at me for complaining about people who smoke while they're driving. He said it wasn't that much of a distraction.

Now, he ignored the part where I explained how some guy in a car burned down all the foliage on a traffic island. There was this enormous fire at a major intersection because some twit threw his cigarette stub out the window. But yeah, sure, it's not a distraction.

The other point of the matter is that when someone is driving, they need to have complete control of the car - that means a firm hand on the wheel. If you've got a cigarette under there as well, I think that's a problem. Now, let's imagine that the cigarette butt slips out of someone's hand while they drive.

I've got no problem with smokers burning themselves while doing something stupid per se - it serves them right for smoking in the first place. However, if the smoker is driving at the time that the cigarette falls into their lap or on their arm, etc, the thing is ... most likely it will make them flinch. The problem is that when they flinch, their car will probably swerve as well, with no warning to the cars in the other lanes.... and then etc, etc, you know where it's going.

Having an, albeit small, open flame in the car while you are driving is not that much of a distraction? That is just nonsense.

[jariten]

dont know if this is still relevant or interesting, but someone asked for it on the last page.

In Japan, about 1 in 8 deaths are due to smoking, thats about 100,000 a year.
theres apparantly 500,000 cigerette vending machines in Japan (just read that in a newspaper)
you`ll still get asked "smoking or non-smoking" when you go into a restaurant.
that being said, the government do seem to be trying to cut down on the amount of places you smoke, particulary while walking about outside. but its only ads at the minute, no fines etc.