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Solo argument Hole in Lucas' argument

#1 User is offline   Grand Moff Lebowski Icon

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 11:19 PM

Lucas state in the latest Entertainment Weekly that the Solo/Greedo shootout is a correction in the new editions. He claims it was always intended to be that way but he didn't have the proper footage to edit the scene together with. And I quote,

"We like to think of [Han Solo] as a murderer because that's hip-- I don't think that's a good thing for people. I mean, I don't see how you could redeem somebody who kills people in cold blood."

Right. Let's examin Lucas' track record on murder:

Princess Leia strangling Jabba is okay.
Han and Luke blasting two innocent technicians and stromtroopers as they ascend the Flacon ramp is acceptable.
And to break the genre a bit, Indians Jones blowing away the Swordsman is merely a calculating move on his part.

Plus, I'm sure, countless other examples in his movies of surprise attack death by a "good guy". Face it George, you are painting yourself in a far away corner.

I would like to close this out by adding that when Solo first sees Vader in EMPIRE, he pulls his piece and starts to open up on him like the badass smuggler he is. Is this acceptable or consistent thinking? And one last MAJOR point..."How could you redeem somebody who kills people in cold blood"? I don't know, George. Ask Anakin F-ing Skywalker!!!! He appears to be all "redeemed" at the end of Jedi. After a LIFETIME of murder, torture and horrible acting as a child.

AND ONE LAST POINT. What does Lucas think Solo was smuggling anyway? Cinnamon? I doubt it was fun treats for oppressed children in the Kessel system.

I'm sending this to Entertainment Weekly. God I wish someone with some constitution would interview this guy.

I am so OUT!
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#2 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 11:45 PM

I would love to have lucas on my show if i could get in contact with him....
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#3 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 01:18 AM

Barend- I think that would not just be a show, but the greatest show on earth. It wouldnt be so much an interview as a no holds barred wrestling match though. I'd advise you to contact the WWE or whatever they call themselves.

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#4 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 02:02 AM

Good points... very good points.

And not only that, remember blowing up Jabba's sail barge? How many innocent musicians, slaves and other people were killed along that? And the fact that Hand would have blasted several Ewoks with his gun if Luke didn't stop him?

Also Anakin masacare of an entire village of being in Episode 2 and the hundreds more he'll commit in Episode 3 and afterwards. Did George ever stop to think about that?

Want more? Greedo! That's who. Greedo WAS about to kill Han, I always thought of it that way. Greedo was trying to blackmail Han into giving him the money in order to 'forget' he found him. To me, that was more or less clear implication that he was there to steal the money off Han, so he WAS about to shoot first, but Han was faster (and smarter, since he knew something like this was going to happen).

There you have it, folks, more reasons to hate George!!! yell.gif
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#5 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 02:11 AM

let's not forget that han handled lieah in an inappropriate manner in ESB in the Mil.Fal in the asteroid...
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#6 User is offline   HK 47 Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 02:46 AM

QUOTE
Want more? Greedo! That's who. Greedo WAS about to kill Han, I always thought of it that way. Greedo was trying to blackmail Han into giving him the money in order to 'forget' he found him. To me, that was more or less clear implication that he was there to steal the money off Han, so he WAS about to shoot first, but Han was faster (and smarter, since he knew something like this was going to happen).


Greedo understood Solo would never give him the money. He held a grudge against the smuggler and found an opportunity to kill him. Solo was simply defending himself, if he didn't shoot first, he'd be dead. "That's the idea..."

Solo: "Yeah, but this time I got the money."
Greedo: "If you give it to me I might forget I found you."
Solo: "Over my dead body"
Greedo: "That's the idea, I've been waiting to do this for a long time."
Solo: "Yes, I bet you have..."
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#7 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 04:26 AM

i agree. Lucas` logic does seem to be a bit frayed around the edges at times.
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#8 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 04:30 AM

I like he's line about how it wasn't possible to make Greedo shoot first at the time.

What, did the red magic marker he used for lasers run out of ink and he didn't have enough money in the budget to buy another one?
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#9 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 06:46 AM

Yeah, the whole thing is ridiculous. If you watch the scene it's quite clear that Greedo is gearing up to shoot Han - and in reality, there's no way anyone shooting at that range could have missed, let alone a professional killer. If Han hadn't shot first he'd be dead.

Whilst we're on the subject, more dialogue from Darth Sillyname's parodies:

QUOTE
Greedo, a CG bounty hunter, approaches Han.

                                  GREEDO
                        It is time for you to die, Solo.

                                  HAN
                        I don't believe in violence. I
                        would be a bad role model if I did.

              Greedo shoots...and misses...

                                  HAN
                        Violence doesn't solve anything, my
                        friend. Here, let me buy you a
                        drink, without alcohol of course.
                        Perhaps you should rethink your
                        direction in life.

                                  GREEDO
                        Perhaps I should!

QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#10 User is offline   Xombie Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 06:52 AM

And when exactly is Han ever "redeemed" anyway?

Han's story arc is not Bad Man becomes Good Man. It's Man Only Out for Himself Leans to Care About Something.

And people do not think Han is a "murderer" because its "hip." In action movies this sort of thing is never considered "murder." Rather, both Greedo and Han are players. Han doesn't want to pay up money he knows he owes Jabba. Greedo wants to make a profit, either by collecting a bounty on Solo's head or getting Han to pay him a bribe to go away. Both of them know that their respective games can get them killed but each has willingly chosen his path. They know the rules of the game and ACCEPTS the possible consequences. If Greedo had gotten the drop on Han, it seems doubtful based on what we've seen of his character, that there would have been any hard feelings except at himself for getting played by a better player.

We the audience KNOW this, because this was the point of the scene back in 77. Lucas has simply forgotten his own rationals. People have never considered murderers "hip." But audiences have always loved the outlaw who is outside the system but is ethical within his own code. Killing Greedo showed us Solo was outside the system. His subsequent behavior then showed off his real values, many of which, he was unaware at the time, that he even possessed.

Within this framework Lucas's changes weaken the scene. It serves now not to reveal character, but only to drive plot exposition (Jabba has a price on Han's head) which is not even really relevant until the next film.
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#11 User is offline   Commoner Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 08:04 AM

Once again Lucas treating us like we're stupid gimps.

My hate swells...
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#12 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 08:33 AM

QUOTE
And when exactly is Han ever "redeemed" anyway?

Han's story arc is not Bad Man becomes Good Man. It's Man Only Out for Himself Leans to Care About Something.


Another thing: When your on a mission to free the galaxy from a tyrannical government, I think that you MIGHT need to get your hands dirty every now and then. Cracking shots at people in bars is probably one of them, too.
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#13 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 08:45 AM

although in the new-new version, appartantly things look better. now they fire almost simultanously. which makes Lucas` comments about the scene even more confusing- now it just looks like they both had the same idea at once. is it worth all this messing about though? heres my question-


WHY NOT JUST PUT IT BACK THE WAY IT WAS??
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#14 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 08:49 AM

Where the hell does Lucas get the impressionthat people think it's "hip" to be a murderer? That's a pretty troubling quote.

I do not, nor will I ever, buy that it was EVER his intention to have Greedo shoot first in 1975-77. Does Han look like someone who just killed someone in self defense? No. He knows what he did when he casually gets up and says, "Sorry about the mess."
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#15 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 09:29 AM

He was going to kill Greedo the whole time. He sat down at the table deliberately so Greedo couldn't see him pulling out his gun, didn't he? Or has that been edited out in the new DVD as well?
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