[J m HofMarN]

Consider this:

Jango Fett kills and fights Jedi for breakfast. He fought three Jedi, killing one of them and nearly killing another, before being slain.

Stormtroopers die horribly when Luke or Han look at them wrong. They show no propensity for fighting at all. They are henchmen.

How would it have been a bad idea to just say that the storm troopers were a conscripted army or something rather than a bunch of clones. And if Palpatine had wanted to really fuck the universe why didn't he just have an army of Dookus or Mauls or Palpatines? Sure they would have fought endlessly amongst themselves but the Jedi would have been uberscrewed.

[jariten]

i dont think theres any proof to suggest that the clones inherited jangos strength or skill or whatever, hence he just needed a body who`d be paid and ask no questions- a bounty hunter for example.

How would it have been a bad idea to just say that the storm troopers were a conscripted army or something rather than a bunch of clones

it wouldnt have been. this is just the path that lucas chose

[J m HofMarN]

More like it was just a cheap excuse to drag an already over-used character into a movie that didn't need him.

[HK 47]

Jango Fett kills and fights Jedi for breakfast. He fought three Jedi, killing one of them and nearly killing another, before being slain.
Stormtroopers die horribly when Luke or Han look at them wrong. They show no propensity for fighting at all. They are henchmen.

Actually the stormtroopers are not clones. Not all of them anyway. According to official sources (Lucas himself actually), they're a mix of clones from many different hosts and regular conscripts. George fixes the continuity issues in style...

And if Palpatine had wanted to really fuck the universe why didn't he just have an army of Dookus or Mauls or Palpatines? Sure they would have fought endlessly amongst themselves but the Jedi would have been uberscrewed.

Or Palpatine himself? Imagine Luke Skywalker in a Matrix style megafight with lots and lots of Palpatine clones! Better keep quiet about it, George might get some ideas...
There was an Expanded Universe comicbook (can't remember the name) when the Emperor clones himself actually.

[Helena]

i dont think theres any proof to suggest that the clones inherited jangos strength or skill or whatever, hence he just needed a body who`d be paid and ask no questions- a bounty hunter for example.

How and why on earth would someone make an army of clones identical to Jango in every way, except for his strength and skill? Surely these things are the most important qualities in a soldier? "Yeah, I'd like to clone this bounty hunter, but he's way too strong and competent - make sure the clones can't hit the broad side of a barn door, will you?"

As for not all the stormtroopers being clones, that may be true. However, you'd still expect some of them to show the same competence as Jango.

[HK 47]

As for not all the stormtroopers being clones, that may be true.

It is true. Lucas damage control set out, because maybe even he thought that Stormtroopers speaking Kiwi was stupid. Would Han and Luke speak Kiwi on the Deathstar when in disguise?

Officer: "Where are you taking this . . . . thing?"
Han (or Luke): "Prisoner transfer from cell block 1138"
Guard: "I wasn't notified. I'll have to clear it. Oh wait, no I don't. Your accent's all wrong!"

However, you'd still expect some of them to show the same competence as Jango.

Exactly, of course they should be more skilled than they are. Also, one thing that worries me is that clonetroopers are made to be "cool", (especially in the Clone Wars cartoon and other EU) since they're basically the good guys during the wars.

<ridiculously far fetched and illogical>i dont think theres any proof to suggest that the clones inherited jangos strength or skill or whatever, hence he just needed a body who`d be paid and ask no questions- a bounty hunter for example.</ridiculously far fetched and illogical>

Really Jariten... Helena is right on this one. Why would they pay this specific Bounty Hunter "exhorbitant sums" to clone his DNA? Because of his cool accent?

[jariten]

are things like accuracy with a gun transmittable through cloning?

[HK 47]

are things like accuracy with a gun transmittable through cloning?

Yes they are. Obviously clones have to go through training programs to learn how to use a gun but reflexes, accuracy and many other basic abilities are derived genetically. The clones would probably not be exact copies of Jango but they would come very close.

So what are you arguing Jariten? Basically any humanoid could have been used as DNA template for the clones?

I ask you again: Why would they pay this specific Bounty Hunter "exhorbitant sums" to clone his DNA?

This post has been edited by HK 47: 28 September 2004 - 08:19 AM

[jariten]

i wasnt trying to argue anything with that question i was just curious.

if all the clones were automatically up to the strength, skill etc. of Jango, why bother giving them intensive training at all? and if training is necessary, isnt it then feasible to assume that some clones would be better shots/stronger/generally harder than others?

and wasnt there already inconsistancies in SW regarding the stormtroopers? ie why would the empire hire such terrible soldiers, and train them even worse? what on earth was Obi Wan talking about "only Imperial storm troopers are so precise"? well, the simple answer is that if they were halfway decent, no one wouldve survived episode 4. theres some elements of these films you`ve just gotta live with, theres inconsistancies in all the films that exist to make them work.

[HK 47]

i wasnt trying to argue anything with that question i was just curious.
if all the clones were automatically up to the strength, skill etc. of Jango, why bother giving them intensive training at all? and if training is necessary, isnt it then feasible to assume that some clones would be better shots/stronger/generally harder than others?
and wasnt there already inconsistancies in SW regarding the stormtroopers? ie why would the empire hire such terrible soldiers, and train them even worse? what on earth was Obi Wan talking about "only Imperial storm troopers are so precise"? well, the simple answer is that if they were halfway decent, no one wouldve survived episode 4. theres some elements of these films you`ve just gotta live with, theres inconsistancies in all the films that exist to make them work.

The genetically transferred abilities should not include any forms of knowledge. Hence intensive training programs. And yes, absolutely, some clones would probably be superior to others, look at the EU elite arc-troopers for example.

IMHO the protagonists of the OT survived because they were all exceptional heroes. But sure there were inconcistensies, very few movies lack that, but they didn't completely and utterly ruin the experience the way the PT does. I know of course we have a different opinion on that one but we've already dealt with that right?

This post has been edited by HK 47: 28 September 2004 - 08:37 AM

[jariten]

And yes, absolutely, some clones would probably be superior to others

exactly!! so wheres the inconsistancy?

I know of course we have a different opinion on that one but we've already dealt with that right?

i think so. it was about the same time that you, JYAMG, Helena, Civ, Barend and HofMarN said "we`re sorry for doubting you Jariten! you were right all along!"

This post has been edited by jariten: 28 September 2004 - 08:59 AM

[HK 47]

exactly!! so wheres the inconsistancy?

Not being Jangos exact duplicates is one thing, being harmless loons is something else. You know, my old posts simply don't vanish because you're grasping at straws for new arguments. Besides I thought you said, and I quote:
"i dont think theres any proof to suggest that the clones inherited jangos strength or skill or whatever, hence he just needed a body who`d be paid and ask no questions- a bounty hunter for example."
That's just... rubbish! See my previous posts...

i think so. it was about the same time that you, JYAMG, Helena, Civ, Barend and HofMarN said "we`re sorry for doubting you Jariten! you were right all along!"

From "a certain point of view" huh? Don't push it Jariten, I'm in a good mood today.

[SimeSublime]

i dont think theres any proof to suggest that the clones inherited jangos strength or skill or whatever, hence he just needed a body who`d be paid and ask no questions- a bounty hunter for example.

Boba is a clone of Jango. Boba has all of Jango's skills. Ergo, the clones inherit Jango's strength.

[Helena]

jariten, they're clones. The whole point about clones is that they are, if not identical to the host, at least as similar as you can possibly get. Barring a few very occasional genetic mutations, why would there be differences between them? And they're all given exactly the same training, so that shouldn't make any difference either.

[HK 47]

jariten, they're clones. The whole point about clones is that they are, if not identical to the host, at least as similar as you can possibly get. Barring a few very occasional genetic mutations, why would there be differences between them? And they're all given exactly the same training, so that shouldn't make any difference either.

Yep. The differences that separate the clones will be mostly due to their experiences in the war and their training programs, not due to their genetic build. Troopers that survive mission after mission will probably become better soldiers. Learn and adapt. It also stands to reason that they had different training programs for different tasks/ranks. Trainingprograms for grunts, pilots, and officers would probably be different in some ways.

Boba is a clone of Jango. Boba has all of Jango's skills. Ergo, the clones inherit Jango's strength.

Nitpick: Not neccessarily. Boba has the potential to be as deadly as Jango, and he later learns those skills through experience, whereas the clones have training programs. But it is a good point.

Anyway the whole Jango as clonemeister idea is just so awful in itself....