[jariten]

HK 47

so you give me a bunch of Lucas bashers and this is supposed to prove what to me? that different people have different opinions about the way Lucas works? that some people dont like the new changes? that Lucas occasionally talks directly out of his arse? i knew these things before. and more tired interpretation from Kurtz- a guy who seems more interested in getting his name in the media again with a bit of well timed popularist Lucas slamming. and he casts his wry eye over episode 1- a film he had absolutly nothing to do with, and had absolutly no part in. he can give me his opinion, fine. but its no more than that.

I didn't mention Kasdan. You're a studio plant aren't you?

busted!

[HK 47]

so you give me a bunch of Lucas bashers and this is supposed to prove what to me? that different people have different opinions about the way Lucas works? that some people dont like the new changes? that Lucas occasionally talks directly out of his arse? i knew these things before. and more tired interpretation from Kurtz- a guy who seems more interested in getting his name in the media again with a bit of well timed popularist Lucas slamming. and he casts his wry eye over episode 1- a film he had absolutly nothing to do with, and had absolutly no part in. he can give me his opinion, fine. but its no more than that.

No. The evidence was suppose to support the notion that Lucas got lucky with the OT and that he's not the genius that some have carefully tried to give the impression of. If you disqualify everything that criticizes Lucas, I can't help you. If the "Galactic Gasbag" article doesn't persuade you I don't know what will. I don't see any "slamming" from Kurtz side by the way. Show me one well written recent article that seriously praises Lucas genius writing and directing, not FX. Please.

busted!

I knew it!!

[baccamon]

Thanks for the welcome chefelf.

My take on Lucas is he provides a perfect (if unfortunate) example of what happens to creativity and imagination when it is performed in a bubble.

When one gains total creative control of their product and does not allow critiqe, diverse input, and outside ideas, the end result will ultimately die. It's no accident that the most influential societies in recorded history were the most diverse in culture.

I wonder what Joseph Campbell would think about Episodes I and II.

[Just your average movie goer]

Wonderful, another new member. Welcome to the forum, baccamon.

[jariten]

When one gains total creative control of their product and does not allow critiqe, diverse input, and outside ideas, the end result will ultimately die.

i hear this critisism a lot, often presented as the true reason behind the apparant failings of episodes 1 and 2. can someone actually give me some idea about where this came from though? can someone present me with evidence that Lucas was not open to third party critique during scriptwriting/filming/post? anyone? heres a bit of evidence to the contrary then, to get us started.

1.Lucas gave copies of the TPM script to Fisher and Kasdan, asked them to read it and comment on it.

2.Lucas co-wrote episode 2 with Jonathon Hales.

[Just your average movie goer]

Hey! And don't forget that other third party who helped out in The Fall of A Saga.

*That's not a link unfortunately. Although it looks like one. I was just do Chefelf's advertising for him in his absence.

[jariten]

If you disqualify everything that criticizes Lucas, I can't help you.

i wasnt. in fact if you read my last post again on the matter, you see that i probably side (at least in part) with those who think the Campbellian influences in Lucas` work are patchy and shady at best. i used to cringe when i read someone attempting to justify JJ as a `clown archetype- thats why hes in star wars`. i know why JJ`s in SW,　but i dont need some half arsed intelletualist backing to help me express it. even so HK, those articles were just peoples opinions, nothing more. they certainly dont help to show me how Lucas is an `accidental genius` or whatever, and again i fail to see how Kurtz` views on a film he had absolutly nothing to do with are supposed to convince me of anything (expect that he didnt like it of course). anyway, how about what baccamon just said, and which i just refuted (with a couple of examples in my favour). what do you make of all that??

[HK 47]

even so HK, those articles were just peoples opinions, nothing more. they certainly dont help to show me how Lucas is an `accidental genius` or whatever,

When fact stares you in the face and you choose to completely ignore it, there's really not much I can do. As I said in another thread, I believe now that the qualities we judge Star Wars by are so wildly different that it's basically impossible to come to an understanding. But you are the person in error here, not to mention having horribly bad taste, and a sense of logic that defies description, but of course, that is my opinion.

[jariten]

WHAT FACT??!! all you`ve shown me is opinion!!!!

[Just your average movie goer]

I don't think we can give you concrete facts, Jariten. None of us where there to witness everything that took place with the production of these films, we can't verify it firsthand, etc. You win on that.

However, what HK47 does offer are some very solid theories put forth by people with very good credentials. Agree with them, disagree with them. Regardless, I'd say that these people are experts in their field and what they say is worth listening to, whether you agree with it or not.

[barend]

here's a goddamned fact...
George Lucarse did not direct EMPIRE STIKES BACK...
therefore it is not his film!!!

ALIENS wasn't SCOTTs or O'BANNONS, it belongs to CAMERON.

he who DIRECTED it ERECTED it!!!!

therefore ESB is not lucass film to alter...
he may have the legal rights but not the artistic one.

search your fealings Jar, you know it to be true...

---------at this point i feel sorry for him though, and i hope someone tells him... that he won't be able to continually upgrade when he's dead...

his work will always be half finished!!!

in any case he should have refilmed them if he really felt that way...
then he could do what the fuck he likes... but do you know why he didn't... ? because even he knows that if he tried to redo that shit without the help of the people who made them so great, HE'D HAVE NOTHING!!!!

[J m HofMarN]

Jariten- Have you yet to consider the reason that Lucas is solely responsible for these films and changes? Let me point out that not everyone has the intelligence and moral fibre of people on this board, including you. We're willing to stand up for what we believe in. However many of those who work for Lucas are likely just oking any decision he makes because he is a kajillionaire. Most people would not say not to him no matter what kind of crazy shit he was up to. In the OT we saw that with SW and ESB people had more control so it was a team effort. In ROTJ granted things started to slip into Lucas' control a little more. Now noone dares question him. I believe it's a quote from the absolutely true adventures of George Lucas when our hero states:

MEESA GEORGE LUCAS!

[J m HofMarN]

By the way I didnt mean to compare you to one of Lucas' lackies that post was worded wrong. You're willing to defend the prequels to all comers whereas the yes men Lucas employs would agree with Barend if only Barend had more money and clout than Lucas does.

[barend]

i got the CLOUT,
i just don't got the dosh to thow it ABOUT!!!

[jariten]

However many of those who work for Lucas are likely just oking any decision he makes because he is a kajillionaire. Most people would not say not to him no matter what kind of crazy shit he was up to.

i know what youre saying, but the thing is i dont know where this idea came from, or in fact who has the clout to back it up. im kind of lost as to where i posted what, but somewhere i posted some evidence that contradicts (to some extent) what you say. again, its-

1. Lucas showed the script fot TPM to several people for feedback/criticism, including Carrie Fisher and Lawrence Kasdan.

2. the `In the Beginning` special feature on the DVD shows an early test screening of TPM, where everyone comments and criticises, and as a result the end battle sequences are changed.

3. he co-wrote AotC with Jonathon Hales.

However, what HK47 does offer are some very solid theories put forth by people with very good credentials. Agree with them, disagree with them. Regardless, I'd say that these people are experts in their field and what they say is worth listening to, whether you agree with it or not.

100% agree with that, and if you read my earlier posts i (think) i stated that i actually agree with some of what was stated in the articles, part. the stuff relating Lucas to Campbell.

he who DIRECTED it ERECTED it!!!!

can i make that my sig??