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Lucasfilm Defends DVD Changes from SF News of the Week...

#16 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 09:20 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Sep 15 2004, 03:14 AM)
So according to that press release, Lucasfilm isn't defending the changes to the STAR WARS trilogy.  They're just defending artists' rights.

Well, I'm all for that.

Thanks for the clarification.

try to defend the changes? do or do not. there is no try.
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#17 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 12:39 AM

At least Lucas has rescinded the insane idea that Greedo fired first. Though I don't like the idea of Greedo firing "shots" Why do I get the idea that Lucas is going to have to release more dvds when ep 3, 7 8 and 9 come out? Damn is he ever milking this thing. I wonder how many versions of the Mona Lisa were painted... Oh wait that's right, there's only one. That's why it's good.

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#18 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 01:45 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Sep 16 2004, 12:39 AM)
Damn is he ever milking this thing. I wonder how many versions of the Mona Lisa were painted... Oh wait that's right, there's only one. That's why it's good.

Hear, hear.

There was a Matisse exhibit a year or two ago. One heralded painting, Reclining Nude (I believe,) anyway, next to it was a mounted progression of photographs: 36 versions of the painting before he was done with it. In the finished painting, prior direction and influence shape the form.

the photo exhibit was "the making of." There was only one definitive work (the painting.)

So he was deliberate and didn't release his work until ready to. (I won't argue the point "was happy with," or "was satisfied with,") But I don't think it took three, or 20 years to complete.

He used the reclining nude again in other works. They were different paintings by definition.


I'm starting to Hate Star Wars. I hope Chef makes another list before May.
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#19 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 01:56 AM

I agree, the process of creating a work of art should not start with crap and then refine until something good comes about (As Lucas seems to think) It starts with an idea, then a few considerations are made and then it is finalized and released. That's what the OT was. Now he's going backwards. Or forwards, or in circles. I dunno what he's doin but I don't likes it. I wonder what would happen if Michaelangelo came and started chiseling away at David.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#20 User is offline   DistantAngel Icon

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 04:37 AM

Once again, we're here at the whole modification issue, something I feel we're destined to repeat again and again until Lucas kicks the bucket and the original trilogy is released in its unmodified form (come on copyright expiration!)

The parallels that some have made with the Mona Lisa, and other classic works of art, is a perfectly fair and appropriate one I think. As far as I'm concerned, a piece of art is, essentially, the physical embodiment of a vision, a tangible representation of creative exp​ression. Whatever your vision or idea is, you pick the medium that you feel is best equipped to represent it to the full. For Da Vinci's Mona Lisa it was paint, for Lucas' "Star Wars" it was film. If that medium is not up to the challenges of accurately depicting your vision, you pick another medium. Regardless, once you've chosen your preferred medium, you stick to it ... you should generally accept its limitations and work within them.

Often, an artist will push the capabilities of the medium or, in cases such as the development of the original trilogy, redefine them entirely. Lucas, giving the guy all credit, re-wrote a lot of the rules about what can and can't be done on film by investing heavily in the creation of ILM in order to achieve the look he was going for. By doing so he changed the medium of film forever. However, even when an artist goes against all convention and makes such monumental changes to their chosen field, there are still limitations to work within, and film is no exception.

It doesn't matter whether Lucas wanted super-duper CGI creatures in Star Wars in 1977, they simply weren't possible. In creating the trilogy, he would have hit the limits of what film could do all the time, and so there would have been a million things he just couldn't do. The artist is then faced with the choice - either get realistic about what they can achieve and work within the limits, or hold off until either the artist, or someone else, breaks those limits. In the case of film, there are two unbreakable limits; time and money. If Lucas was so intent on seeing his trilogy fulfill his vision to its utmost, he would have abandoned the project until the technology was available to do it justice. This is the reason that no-one had attempted a live-action film version of the complete "Lord Of The Rings" trilogy for nearly fifty years after it was first written.

Lucas, however, had to work within the limits of time and money. Fox already saw half the budget for ANH go on effects, and there was no way a studio would say "sure George, we'll wait 20 years until it's possible to realise these films as you want them". It's not going to happen. Lucas had only one choice - compromise. Yes, that meant that his vision would not be completely fulfilled, but at least his work would get to be seen. However, once a piece of art goes public, there is a tacit agreement between the artist and the audience; I create it, you enjoy / appreciate / understand it. With Star Wars, this agreement was met by both parties.

And that's where it ends. The rights of an artist to express themself and to protect the result of that exp​ression should always be upheld, but so too must the rights of those who appreciate that work. Once a piece of art goes public, it is an indication that the artist is finished expressing him/herself and that it is time for the work to find an audience. From this moment on, the artist should accept that the work belongs to the audience, and that if he doesn't like how it is being perceived, tough. If you're unhappy with it, don't release it until you are. When you make changes to your work before you give it to the audience, you're finishing - you're honing and refining your vision. If you modify it after you've given it to the audience, you're tampering, vandalising. You're breaking the agreement. You're showing a great disrepect to the audience who enjoy and appreciate your work by telling them, "Actually, I wasn't finished. You don't mind if I fiddle with it a bit more?"

Lucas may say that the original trilogy didn't fully represent his vision. Whether that's true or not, he does not have the right to change it after he's given it to the audience. It's like someone building a house for you and then, shortly after you've moved in they tell you "Oh, we've not actually finished it yet. We're going to be knocking down a wall or two, putting up others, changing the number of rooms, and completely re-wiring and re-plumbing it" - all while you're still trying to live there. A great artist, regardless of how grand their vision is or how much of a perfectionist they are, knows when to say "it is done". When creating "Bohemian Rhapsody", Freddie Mercury already had a song that was 5 seconds short of 6 minutes, an unheard length for a commercial chart single. It had nearly 200 vocal overdubs, and is still one of the most beautifull well-constructed pieces of contemporary art to this day, nearly 30 years after its first release. The album it was recorded for, "A Night At The Opera" was, at the time, the most expensive album ever recorded - what, exactly, was stopping Mercury from adding more to the song, making it longer, doing more vocals, more guitar, more layers? Ultimately, nothing - if the album's already the most expensive ever, what difference is an extra few thousand-quid and a couple more weeks going to be?

When all is said and done, what stopped him was his own restraint - he could have said, "no, it's still not right", but he didn't. He knew when to say when. Like all great artists, there comes a time when you know that anything else you do is unnecessary, and could potentially ruin what you already have. It's a feeling that most of us have when undertaking any personal creative project - we simply get to a point where we can say "that's it", and go no further. Lucas clearly doesn't have this. For the last 7 or 8 years, he has been constantly vandalising his own work under the guise of "completing his vision". Imagine if Da Vinci had kept modifying the Mona Lisa every time a new, better quality paint came along? Imagine if he'd given instructions to others to carry on "improving" his work as technology advanced ... after paint would have come the photograph - the Louvre would be hanging a Polaroid of some Mona lookalike ... then what? Would they now have a cellphone nailed to the wall that you could view a grainy, lo-res digital image of a lookalike? To quote South Park, "imagine if they'd updated the Colliseum every few years - we'd just have a big douchey stadium now".

Lucas can crow all he likes about an artist's rights to modify his own work to complete his vision, but the fact is IT IS NOT HIS WORK. Film is one of the few artistic mediums that is a collaborative effort. Yes, it generally represents the vision of one person, but it ultimately is a work created by many. "Star Wars" may be Lucas' vision as director / writer, but there are hundreds of others who made that work what it is and, when he modifies it, he is paying a great disrespect to everyone involved. When he pastes Hayden Christensen in to the final scene of ROTJ, he is disrespecting the work of Sebastian Shaw. When he gets Temura Morrison to re-dub the stormtroopers and Boba Fett, he is obliterating the work of the original performers. Imagine how you'd feel if, for 20 years, you could claim "hey, I was the voice of stormtrooper #2 in Star Wars" - it's a bit lame, but it's something to be proud of, something for your grandchildren. Now imagine that, in the interests of fulfilling his vision, Lucas has erased your lines and re-dubbed them with someone else. The fact that you were ever in the movie will be erased from history - your voice gone, your name removed from the credits - when all the old copies of the original trilogy have decayed to nothing, your contribution to that work is gone for good.

George Lucas needs to understand that, although his name crops up more than anybody's in the Star Wars saga, they're not his movies. They're Mark Hamill's. They're Alec Guinness'. They're even Hayden Christensen's. But most of all, they're ours. Without the audience, art is just an exercise in self-gratification. It's the audience that makes a dumb space movie into a work of filmic art and a cultural phenomenon. And with film, the work belongs to everyone involved, unless you do everything yourself. This may explain why if anyone is ever going to make a movie without actors, it'll be Lucas. He seems so focus on his singular vision, that absolutely everyone involved must feel like an obstacle. "Damn actors, they never perform it exactly as it is in my head" ... "Bloody effects supervisor making excuses about technology not being advanced enough yet" ... "I'm an artist, and I want to express my vision!"

In the interests of the memories of a huge number of people who feel that the art they enjoyed as a child is being corrupted by its creator just to satisfy his own need to produce something that, in his mind, is a flawless and perfect representation of his vision, I have one thing to say to George Lucas ...

George, please, for the good of us all ... quit making movies, and take up the Etch-A-Sketch ...

This post has been edited by DistantAngel: 16 September 2004 - 04:44 AM

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#21 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 06:12 AM

Distant Angel- ... Wow, that was a well informed and concise criticism that all those before it only touched and then shied away from. I am in complete agreement. I think the problem is that Lucas is under the impression that he is adding things to the OT. Now this has precidents in films. In special editions there's maybe some deleted scenes added in or something like that. However these scenes adhere to the spirit of the movie and they make sense as they were made at the same time. Sure they might not absolutely need to be there but they were meant to be there. What Lucas is doing is not only adding things that were never meant to be in the original (like tossing oregano into a pot of yams ) and even taking things out (like removing the marshmallows ) Neither thing is good but I think that Lucas could be decent and just re-release the old trilogies and have his silly extra scenes as just what they are, extras on the dvds. That way those who don't like them can just laugh and those who do like them can think they're super nifty.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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Posted 16 September 2004 - 01:22 PM

An excellent analysis, DistantAngel. And all so true...
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#23 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:21 PM

Thank you, Distant Angel. That was a really intelligent and well written post. It says it all.
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#24 User is offline   Commoner Icon

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:54 PM

Bravo, distantangel! Well said!
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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:57 PM

Exactly. Add to which, very few of the changes correspond to changes in technology. What technological advance came along that made it possible for him to remove the English lettering from the tractor beam display? What, technologically, prevented hism from allowing Greedo to shoot first? (any glib claim that it was an "editing oversight" will always meet a condescending stare-down). Luke's scream? Bantha poo?

I'd like to say, "The majority of the changes Lucas made are efforts to clean up effects he'd always been troubled by, like visible matte lies and poorly animated puppets." Of course, the fact is that the majority of the changes Lucas has made are afterthoughts, and his cgi additions have nothing on the fine puppetry of the original films. Excepting Jar Jar of course, who is a great bit of animation, even if he's a stupid character.

The biggest criticism I have of returning to the classic trilogy is that there is no technology capable of changing the basic look, the acting, the story. The "special editions" are so fundamentally similar to the originals that they might as well not have been made. With current technology, Lucas would not have made something like the special editions; he'd have made smething like the PT. And that's all well and good, if you allow yourself to move on and to make new things, rather than tinkering and fussing over something whose genuine weak spots will never be reapired with digital fixes. I think to create a contemporary analogy, Spielberg has never gone back and added more shark footage to JAWS. It is what it is, and in the meantime he's made all sorts of other films, across various crowd-pleasing genres. Sure, he made changes to ET, but utimately he was troubled by the decision, and he left the consumer with the choice.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#26 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 09:49 PM

thankyou so much for that insightful post... spoken like a great lawyers closing statement... i hope you give that speach when i'm on the stand for kill the assclown in question...


i have to say, if he were truley tortured bu the existence of his previously released 'frame work' that instead of throwing 21st century technology in the form of CGI and what not, onto 1970s film, he should have just remade it.


he's a psycho.... it's like putting headlights and indicators on a horse!!!
it looks utterly absured. All childhood erasure aside. approaching these SPESHUL EDISHUNS from a non emotional, detatched, film making point of view... What he has done is patheticly lame. Harrison Ford standing there with his 1970s hair, with the unchangeable resolutions of aged 1970s stock analoge film grade (no matter what you do to it), talking to a 2004 CGI Jabba who (shadow included) have a complete digital [higher pixle count (which by definition is incompadable with the background it is invading)] grade to it. It's obscene, it doesn't even look good. nor impressive. the film actually looked more advanced back in the day, yes it had seems, but at least every article appearing was consistant in film texture and grade, age, and lighting. and that made it a better project...

so if what we are seeing now is the true vision, and that meaning that the true vision is inferior to the 'make-do' vision of the so inceadibly limmiting dark ages that were the 1970s, the i'm affraid that GL was blessed with an oportunity, with the magnitude of divine intervention, to have his lame ass vision forged into something brilliant by the OTHER PEOPLE who worked on that film. turning a script of utter bullshit dialogue into something loveable, memorable, and worthy of worship and adoration... and the 'genius' and 'mastermind' compliments that have built him into what he has become today has lead to him thinking he so big he can do what he wants, like a cute girlfriend with no self esteem, who you build up with compliments until she starts thinking she can do better and leaves YOU, except this asshole has caught his sorry ass in reality trap of paradoxical intensity... becasue he's purging the work of the people who made him a god, and now that he's god, he is destroying the people who have believed in him, and all that will be left of his world will be anti-lucas atheists who refuse to aknowlage his existance or 'genius' or whatever... and HE WILL SEIZE TO EXIST.

well that's the plan annyway!!!


-barend
FSW!!!

This post has been edited by barend: 16 September 2004 - 09:53 PM

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#27 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 11:40 AM

Great and well thought out post, Distant Angel. Are you an angel?

sorry. It was a fabulous read, and it's really laid the groundwork for new criticisms. And I don't think we're expressing anything new here, just the same message that needs to be repeated again and again, with firm conviction.

QUOTE
I wonder what would happen if Michaelangelo came and started chiseling away at David.
Exactly. One of the cool things about that statue is that on the backside, the hand holds a stone and there's this little marble "strut" that holds the arm in place. I for one would hate to see that 500 year old technology removed.

Or worse yet, Lucas selling all he has to buy and alter the statue ohmy.gif
("He always meant for the hands and the head to be in proportion to the body.")
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Posted 17 September 2004 - 12:11 PM

Available now: My final word on the subject.
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#29 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 01:33 PM

Very well put... all of you.

QUOTE
Exactly. Add to which, very few of the changes correspond to changes in technology. What technological advance came along that made it possible for him to remove the English lettering from the tractor beam display? What, technologically, prevented hism from allowing Greedo to shoot first? (any glib claim that it was an "editing oversight" will always meet a condescending stare-down). Luke's scream? Bantha poo?


That about sums up my feelings precisely.
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#30 User is offline   Zerahsedai Icon

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 04:41 PM

Great post, Distant Angel.
Thanks.
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