[Chefelf]

There is every indication in ROTJ that Obi-Wan trained Anakin against Yoda's best wishes. "I thought I could train him as well as master Yoda... I was wrong." Yet the prequels show that Obi-Wan's training was perfectly fine but that Anakin was just a reckless jerk. Also, Yoda okays the training of Anakin.

Discuss.

[Paladin]

Another reason to hate Star Wars, the inconcistancy between the OT and the PT is so big that George Lucas would have to remake Episode 4, 5 and 6 in a completely different way to make them fit properly. So for all goods and purposes, the PT didn't do ANYTHING to explain the events of the OT in a proper manner. I guess it's up to FanFic writers to write down the PT according to their views (which for some reason I believe will be better).

[Chefelf]

It's pretty bad when you have to rely on fanfic for BETTER versions.

[Helena]

We actually see very little of Anakin's 'training', apart from a few scenes of him getting (justifiably) told off by Obi-Wan. It certainly didn't seem all that different from Obi's own training, yet somehow it turned Anakin from the cutesy little kid of TPM into the dangerously immature, self-obsessed psychopath of AotC.

This post has been edited by Helena: 03 September 2004 - 12:37 PM

[Mike Mac from NYU]

There is every indication in ROTJ that Obi-Wan trained Anakin against Yoda's best wishes. "I thought I could train him as well as master Yoda... I was wrong." Yet the prequels show that Obi-Wan's training was perfectly fine but that Anakin was just a reckless jerk. Also, Yoda okays the training of Anakin.

The major point brought up in ROTJ was that Obi-Wan was as much to blame for Darth Vader being created.

But Lucas essentially makes Obi-Wan blameless in th PT films In fact he seems to more a victim of other peoples stupid mistakes.

1. First of all he is forced to teach Anakin by Qui-Jon asking him to do so when he was dying.

2. Obi-Wan even says himself to Qui-jon that the boy is dangerous and that the council was right. So essentially obi-Wan believed in the beginning that Anakin might become a Sith Lord.

3 Obi-Wan looks to be more the victim of a bad student than a bad teacher in ATOC. I mean Anakin acts like a spoiled little bitch!! You get the feeling that regardless of the teacher.Anakin would have become a dark Jedi ANYWAY!!!!!!

[Paladin]

Anakin was evil from the very beginning. Just how he was a 'good friend, a great star pilot, and a cunning warrior' is beyond me. If anything, he's the opposite of that. Obi-Wan and Anakin can't stand each other and they frequently get into quarrels, in Episode 1 it was plain luck and not skill that made him destroy the station and from the way he fights in most battles, he's a reckless moron and not a cunning warrior.

The ONLY scene in which he seems to give a slightly good show is when he grapples on Zam's speeder. But for some nagging little reason, I believe that any Jedi could have done the same, so it doesn't really make him stand out from the rest of the Jedi crowd.

More Lucas crap.

P.S. I've just started to write a new practice story, anyone wants a part?

This post has been edited by Paladin: 03 September 2004 - 01:27 PM

[Chefelf]

Right. He's not a cunning warrior. He's dumb and evil. A very horrible protagonist. Who can relate to his character?

P.S. Practice story?

[Vwing]

Also, Obi-Wan says, so affectionately "and he was a good friend." First of all, this in my opinion shows that Anakin was a CONTEMPORARY, not a little kid when they met, and that Anakin and Obi had more of a, well, friend-to-friend relationship. Instead they have what I guess is a father-son relationship, since Anakin refers to Obi as a father. And of course in Ep III they can't really be that friendly, since, you know, they have to duel and Anakin has to really turn to the dark side. So he just blew this.

[Little Jerry Seinfeld]

"...and a good friend."

what????????

"what am i saying?? ...actually, luke - your father was the luckiest damn pilot i've ever seen (he should have been killed countless times), a sloppy, and, frankly, STUPID warrier, and a backstabbing, whiny li'l bitch."

annie actually IMPROVES as a jedi as darth vader - he's a good pilot, a smart warrior, and loyal to his master... hey, maybe there is something to be said for being a dark jedi.

obi wan was a tortured soul in 'star wars' who is looking to redeem himself... in these prequels, he was FORCED into a situation (instructing annie) which he PREDICTED would end badly.

oh, it kills me.

[Paladin]

"what am i saying?? ...actually, luke - your father was the luckiest damn pilot i've ever seen (he should have been killed countless times), a sloppy, and, frankly, STUPID warrier, and a backstabbing, whiny li'l bitch."

Hey, I complain a lot myself. But at least I do it in a restrained mature fashion... but I'm more of a worry wart (as I call it), but I don't go overboard or say 5 year old things like 'I should be all powerful'.

P.S. Practice story?

Right, I assume you want a part. Just PM and we'll have a little discussion... unless you wanna do it over here, which is fine by me.

[njamilla]

Anakin is a poor master, and that was Yoda's concern. Obi-Wan had just lost his master to Darth Maul. Obi-Wan hadn't even passed his trials. He was not even recognized as a knight; just a padawan. With as little experience Obi-Wan had in the Jedi order, what arrogance is it that he feels he has the ability, much less the wisdom, to instruct another Jedi; much less someone Qui-Gon has identified as a person with more midi-chlorians than even Yoda (whatever that means).

The way McGregor has played Obi-Wan the Jedi padawan cum knight/master is not reckless, but incompetent. Obi-Wan was a passionate supporter of Qui-Gon, who, himself, challenges the authority of the Jedi Council. Yet Obi remains steadfastly loyal to his master. Perhaps this is Qui-Gon's mistake (or arrogance) to think that his inexperienced padawan has the wherewithall to instruct someone who might be the universe's greatest Jedi. Obi, again out of loyalty, takes Qui-Gon's charge to instruct Anakin to heart and insists he will instruct Anakin. How could he refuse to do otherwise? He has trust in Qui-Gon's wisdom, but Yoda is wary. For good reason. But how out of character Obi-Wan is when he suddenly distrusts the wisdom of the Jedi council when he earlier challenges Qui-Gon's decision to disregard the wishes of the Jedi council.

I do NOT like how McGregor portrays Obi-Wan. He's petulant, hard-headed, arrogant. But it still fits in with the OT. I would rather have have had Obi-Wan be a competent master who did everything right, but that his student did not learn to trust his master. Rather, GL portrayed an Emperor who lured Anakin to the Dark Side because of Anakin's superior attitude toward Obi-Wan. A great instructor would have embraced a student who demonstrated abilities better than the instructor. That is what a teacher wants of a student -- for them to excel. Instead of a great master-apprentice relationship which is corrupted by Anakin's choice to gain prestige and power, you get an impetuous kid who is naturally driven toward a figure who gives him more respect than his own teacher. What a sad story that is.

[Heccubus]

I came in late, but doesn't Yoda seem reluctant to allow the training to begin in Ep. 1? I recall him not fully agreeing with it. Didn't Mace Windu convince him or some stupid thing? I don't even know anymore...just ignore me.

[Just your average movie goer]

This has been good reading, guys. Thanks for this thread, Chefelf.

Also, Obi-Wan says, so affectionately "and he was a good friend." First of all, this in my opinion shows that Anakin was a CONTEMPORARY, not a little kid when they met, and that Anakin and Obi had more of a, well, friend-to-friend relationship.

A big thank you to you, Vwing. It is comforting to know that there are others out there who feel that Anakin should have been an adult when he met Obi Wan. I think there's a few of us on this forum who feel that way - but not as many as there should be.

Anakin is a poor master, and that was Yoda's concern. Obi-Wan had just lost his master to Darth Maul. Obi-Wan hadn't even passed his trials. He was not even recognized as a knight; just a padawan. With as little experience Obi-Wan had in the Jedi order, what arrogance is it that he feels he has the ability, much less the wisdom, to instruct another Jedi; much less someone Qui-Gon has identified as a person with more midi-chlorians than even Yoda (whatever that means).

It is sad, isn't it? Lucas has really made a mess of what should have been a far more simpler situation.

Obi Wan should have been a Jedi Knight when he met Anakin, not an apprentice. The term 'padawan' should be thrown to the rancor.

Qui Gon should not have been involved in this at all. We don't need Qui Gon. The original trilogy gives us every indication that Obi Wan trained Anakin of his own volition.

And George could have done without the Jedi council on Coruscant. Yoda doesn't look like he's lived on Dagobah for thirty years. If he's been training Jedi for 800 years, I'd say he would have trained them in much the same way as he trained Luke - on Dagobah. And therefore the chances were that Obi Wan probably didn't get much of a chance to talk to him about training Anakin.

Right. He's not a cunning warrior. He's dumb and evil. A very horrible protagonist. Who can relate to his character?

The last time I looked on this forum, it seemed to only be Jariten. As for everyone else, well I think it's safe to say that we all think he's an immature, pyschopathic moron.

Paladin, you summed it up pretty well -

Anakin was evil from the very beginning. Just how he was a 'good friend, a great star pilot, and a cunning warrior' is beyond me. If anything, he's the opposite of that. Obi-Wan and Anakin can't stand each other and they frequently get into quarrels, in Episode 1 it was plain luck and not skill that made him destroy the station and from the way he fights in most battles, he's a reckless moron and not a cunning warrior.

And I agree with Little Jerry Seinfeld that Vader is an improvement on the Anakin that we've seen in the prequels.

Maybe some little inconsistencies with the original movies could be excusable (although if Lucas bothered to watch the old movies, there's no reason why he should have made ANY mistakes). However, Lucas has forgotten the biggest and the most integral part of the story of Vader's redemption...

he was once a good man.


PS - Paladin, sure I'd like a part.

[Paladin]

PS - Paladin, sure I'd like a part.

All righty then, I'll need your real name and I have to ask some questions about how to design your character and his part. You can PM me if you want, or we can do it over here, your choice entirely.

Even though it's a 'practice' story, I'll still make it a full lengthed one (about 5 or 6 chapters), but the plot may not be thought up of too well since I'm practing more of style rather than plot/character development. It still should be entertaining regardless.

[Helena]

I do NOT like how McGregor portrays Obi-Wan. He's petulant, hard-headed, arrogant. But it still fits in with the OT. I would rather have have had Obi-Wan be a competent master who did everything right, but that his student did not learn to trust his master. Rather, GL portrayed an Emperor who lured Anakin to the Dark Side because of Anakin's superior attitude toward Obi-Wan. A great instructor would have embraced a student who demonstrated abilities better than the instructor. That is what a teacher wants of a student -- for them to excel. Instead of a great master-apprentice relationship which is corrupted by Anakin's choice to gain prestige and power, you get an impetuous kid who is naturally driven toward a figure who gives him more respect than his own teacher. What a sad story that is.

But Obi-Wan's attitude towards Anakin is entirely understandable, given how Anakin behaves. He conspicuously fails to demonstrate even a hint of self-control, maturity, responsibility or any of the qualities that are at least as important to a Jedi as Force ability. Nor, come to that, does he show any evidence of 'superior ability' to Obi-Wan - sure, he claims to be 'more powerful' than his master, but it comes across as mere adolescent boasting. And since we know that Obi-Wan defeats him in a duel in Episode III, I don't see how he's going to demonstrate his superiority there either.