[jariten]

There is every indication in ROTJ that Obi-Wan trained Anakin against Yoda's best wishes. "I thought I could train him as well as master Yoda... I was wrong." Yet the prequels show that Obi-Wan's training was perfectly fine but that Anakin was just a reckless jerk

i dont think theres any inconsistancy. In Jedi, Obi reveals that he blames himself, at least in part, for what happened to Anakin. In light of AotC, this makes perfect sense. Anakins complaints about Obi Wan in AotC are perfectly well founded. Obi Wan is too critical, he does restrict Anakin and hold him back, which is precisely the wronf way to handle it, because in AotC, Obis attempt to constrain Anakin leads to his undeveloped power being vented in two ways-

1. the murder of the tuskans after the death of his mother (after which he decides exactly how he will use his power)

2. Palpatine is easily able to find the gap which Obi was unable to fill- they only have one scene together but its so important. Palpatine basically just massages Anakins ego, telling him hes the greatest, and intentionally turning him even more against Obi Wan.

think about hiw Qui Gon was, a caring, nurturing, compassionate kind of guy who looked out for anakin, guided him, but never forced him into anything (execpt maybe when he told him to stay in the cockpit, but that was just him looking out for anakins life) "i want you to watch me and be mindful" vs. the "dont do this, dont do that" method of Obi Wan. I think this is one of the main reasons Lucas wrote Qui Gon into Star Wars, to show the differnece between him and Obi, and to leave you wondering what might have happened if he had trained him instead.

[civilian_number_two]

No, jariten. Qui-Gon was a red shirt. His role was to show you that the monster (in his case Darth Maul) was dangerous.

Qui Gon was written in to the movie so he could die at the end. And of course that's dumb; the story shoud have been about Obi Wan and Anakin.

[jariten]

yes, civilian, that was the reason Qui Gon was included. and if no one can be bothered to provide a better counter argument to what I just proposed then "no jariten youre wrong" then its case closed m`lud.

[Despondent]

I'd like to see a case closed. and buried.







did I just write that? I'm only kidding.
Just stretching my feelings I suppose.

[Radu094]

Also, Obi-Wan says, so affectionately "and he was a good friend." First of all, this in my opinion shows that Anakin was a CONTEMPORARY, not a little kid when they met, and that Anakin and Obi had more of a, well, friend-to-friend relationship. Instead they have what I guess is a father-son relationship, since Anakin refers to Obi as a father. And of course in Ep III they can't really be that friendly, since, you know, they have to duel and Anakin has to really turn to the dark side. So he just blew this.

A huge let-down from GL here. Sir Alec Guinnes plays this part incredibly well... he talks about Vader (well, Anakin) as if of a good, old, life-time close friend, whom the events, and the war, has brought him to be "on the other side" of the baricade.

An old firend, with whom he had a "disagreement". This gets beautifuly tragic in the end of ANH when he must fight his former friend (and probably war buddy), pushed by the turn of events and by their sense of duty on a head-to-head confrontation..

I've seen this happening personally, when the events, maybe personal ambitions, or just life in general, has alienated very close friends of mine into "diferent camps"..now we don't even talk to eachother. It can be a simple disagreement, a mistake of him you cannot forget, a grunge you cannot let go, or simply the fact that when the (clone) war was over , you ended up in diferent camps because of diferent beliefs.

The PT could have been (also) about just this: a very close friendship torn appart by the war (or maybe because of Anakin's love for Amidala). Two very powerfull Jedis: one succumbs to the love for Amidala, and somehow fails or betrais the Jedi order. The other cannot ever forgive him for what he did. At first Anakin repents, but then Amidala dies (seemingly because of Obi-Wan's fault), and Anakin is forever lost to the dark side. Powerfull caracters caught in special events ... a great greek tragedy..

But of course you cannot put such a tragedy on-screen if your movie looks like a Shrek 3, Disney-produced, cartoon.

PTs could have rocked....

[Helena]

i dont think theres any inconsistancy. In Jedi, Obi reveals that he blames himself, at least in part, for what happened to Anakin. In light of AotC, this makes perfect sense. Anakins complaints about Obi Wan in AotC are perfectly well founded. Obi Wan is too critical, he does restrict Anakin and hold him back, which is precisely the wronf way to handle it, because in AotC, Obis attempt to constrain Anakin leads to his undeveloped power being vented in two ways-

1. the murder of the tuskans after the death of his mother (after which he decides exactly how he will use his power)

OK, I am fed up to the back teeth of hearing this. Anakin does not murder the Sand People because Obi-Wan was 'holding him back' - if the Force was something that 'built up' inside people and had to be given release in violent bursts of anger, Jedi would be falling to the Dark Side every five minutes. Anakin goes on a killing spree because he is dangerously lacking in self-control, full stop. His whining about 'It's all Obi-Wan's fault' is simply a desperate attempt to deflect blame for the horrific crime he committed, which he doesn't even have the courage or maturity to accept responsibility for. Some fucking Jedi!

And in what sense are Anakin's complaints 'well-founded'? Obi-Wan is acting exactly as you would expect a teacher to do in the face of the childish, irresponsible, arrogant behaviour displayed by his pupil throughout the film .Do lines like "It's worse... he's overly critical! He never listens! He just doesn't understand. It's not fair!" and "I should be [all-powerful]! Someday I will be... I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!" sound like someone who is actually ready to become a fully-fledged Jedi? What Anakin clearly does not understand is that emotional maturity is just as important for a Jedi as the ability to use the Force, and this is why Obi-Wan is 'holding him back'.

You do not get any sense from the film that Anakin is a brilliant pupil held back by an overly cautious master. He displays no particularly outstanding skill with the Force or anything else, and the only evidence we see of Obi-Wan's 'restricting' him is a few lines like 'We will do exactly as the Council has instructed, and you will learn your place, young one' - pretty much the same kind of thing Qui-Gon occasionally said to Obi-Wan. And I can tell you that Obi-Wan is a hell of a lot more patient with Anakin than I would be in the same situation.

2. Palpatine is easily able to find the gap which Obi was unable to fill- they only have one scene together but its so important. Palpatine basically just massages Anakins ego, telling him hes the greatest, and intentionally turning him even more against Obi Wan.

The one scene that is 'so important' is just a couple of lines hastily inserted at the last minute, because Lucas realised that Anakin should have a reason to betray the Jedi and join Palpatine later. This is the only indication in the entire film that Anakin and Palpatine even know each other. What kind of 'guidance' can Palpatine have given him? Why would the Supreme Chancellor have any involvement whatsoever in a Jedi Padawan's training? Yet again Lucas breaks the 'show, don't tell' rule, leaving us with yet more unanswered questions.

think about hiw Qui Gon was, a caring, nurturing, compassionate kind of guy who looked out for anakin, guided him, but never forced him into anything (execpt maybe when he told him to stay in the cockpit, but that was just him looking out for anakins life) "i want you to watch me and be mindful" vs. the "dont do this, dont do that" method of Obi Wan. I think this is one of the main reasons Lucas wrote Qui Gon into Star Wars, to show the differnece between him and Obi, and to leave you wondering what might have happened if he had trained him instead.

Qui-Gon wasn't training Anakin at that point, remember? Obi-Wan was his apprentice, and his approach to training seemed pretty much the same as Obi-Wan's later on. Just consider his first few lines in TPM: "Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs" and "Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan." Sounds like a 'don't do this, don't do that' approach to me, yet somehow Obi-Wan avoided becoming a psychotic murderer like Anakin. Hmm, I wonder why that was?

[jariten]

got plenty to say to that, but its going to have to wait till later.

quickly though- Anakins slaughter of the tuskans wasnt all Obi wans fault obviously, but he was a part of it. like i keep saying, Anakin made the choices, but there were external influences too.

[Helena]

got plenty to say to that, but its going to have to wait till later.

quickly though- Anakins slaughter of the tuskans wasnt all Obi wans fault obviously, but he was a part of it. like i keep saying, Anakin made the choices, but there were external influences too.

No. It. Wasn't. Obi-Wan wasn't even there at that point. Obi-Wan didn't even know that Anakin's mother had been captured by the Sand People. If we had seen Anakin begging to be allowed to look for his mother after one of his nightmares, and Obi-Wan refusing him on the grounds of 'Jedi duties' or some such, he might have had slightly more of a point - but that doesn't happen. Anakin is a whining little bitch who is quite willing to blame everyone and everything for his own mistakes, except the person who is really responsible - himself.

[jariten]

he doesnt blame Obi Wan directly for the death of his mother but for the fact that he held him back and didnt allow him to become powerful enough to prevent the death of his mother

got that? its all there in the film.

"Why couldnt I save her, I know I could have"

"Its all Obi Wans fault, hes holding me back!"



Padme "youre not all powerful Annie"

Anakin "well I should be...one day I will be...I promise you that I will even stop people from dying"

then he decides how he will use this new found power, he will use it to get exactly what he wants and prevent anything tragic happening to him (and to Padme, the one he loves, and another external influence) again, and dum dum duuuummmm, hes on the path to the dark side. ive said it a million times but heres a million and one- Anakin forges his own path, and is fully responsible for his actions (as he realises as the saga progresses) but has other influences in his life guiding him also. just like...in real life...

[Just your average movie goer]

Jariten. Your arguments are really courageous, they are. But they fail because what you go on about, while it sounds good, is not what happens in these movies.

George Lucas has made two (and is working on a third) really terrible lame movies with amateur storylines, wooden characters and lots of gratuitous silliness.

All you're doing is creating excuses for him. For the love of God, why would you do this?

Save yourself the trouble, my friend. Email George Lucas and ask him to join the forum so he can defend himself.

We all saw the same movies, Jariten. And believe me, all these wonderful things that you see in them are not there. They're just figments of your imagination.

[Helena]

he doesnt blame Obi Wan directly for the death of his mother but for the fact that he held him back and didnt allow him to become powerful enough to prevent the death of his mother

got that? its all there in the film.

"Why couldnt I save her, I know I could have"

"Its all Obi Wans fault, hes holding me back!"



Padme "youre not all powerful Annie"

Anakin "well I should be...one day I will be...I promise you that I will even stop people from dying"

How could allowing him to become more powerful have enabled him to stop his mother from dying? Since when is it even possible for the Jedi to stop mortally-injured people from dying, even with the help of the Force? We never see Obi-Wan, or Yoda, or anyone else using this amazing ability; Obi-Wan doesn't complain that he could have saved Qui-Gon if he had been more powerful. The fact that Anakin thinks this is possible is yet another example of his immaturity and his lack of understanding about what it means to be a Jedi.

The only actual complaint Anakin makes about Obi-Wan is that he won't let him face the trials to become a Jedi Knight. Did he imagine that he would suddenly be granted magical god-like powers on becoming a fully-fledged Jedi? His mother was at death's door when he found her; what could even a Jedi Master have done in those last few seconds that would have saved her?

And even if it had been possible to save her, that still wouldn't make Obi-Wan responsible for what happened next. Some people might kill their mother's murderer in the heat of the moment, but what Anakin did went way, way beyond that - he went out and slaughtered a whole load of innocent people in cold blood. It's not like he was even lashing out in blind rage - we saw the Sand People running away from him, and we saw that he knew what he was doing. Short of dressing in Sith robes, grabbing a red lightsaber and slashing up the entire Jedi Council, he could hardly have done more to demonstrate exactly why he was not suitable for the Jedi.

then he decides how he will use this new found power, he will use it to get exactly what he wants and prevent anything tragic happening to him (and to Padme, the one he loves, and another external influence) again, and dum dum duuuummmm, hes on the path to the dark side. ive said it a million times but heres a million and one- Anakin forges his own path, and is fully responsible for his actions (as he realises as the saga progresses) but has other influences in his life guiding him also. just like...in real life...

But what he actually uses his power for is to take over the galaxy, isn't it? Which anyone who saw his little Sand People episode, and his subsequent behaviour, could have predicted. This is why people who do things like that in real life are locked up in jail for the rest of their lives, rather than being allowed to go happily about their business - particularly as a so-called keeper of the peace!

If Anakin had a Jedi bone in his body he would have gone and turned himself into the authorities straight after the Sand People massacre: "Look, I just murdered a whole village of people in a fit of rage. I realise that I am a danger to myself and to society, and that I need mental help. Please, I want to be locked up for my own good." People have done this in real life. But instead, in a classic display of psychopathic behaviour, he attempts to shift the blame for his crimes to others and diminish their gravity by claiming that his victims somehow 'deserved' it. "Yeah, I'm sorry about that whole 'mass killing' thing, but my master was frustrating my ambitions so it's all his fault. Oh, and it doesn't really matter because the Sand People are just animals anyway."

When Luke refused to strike down the Emperor in cold blood, despite his anger at what he thought was the deaths of his friends, that was behaviour worthy of a Jedi. But Anakin is not a Jedi; he doesn't even have the moral compass of a normal human being. He is just a psychopath. No wonder the Dark Side suited him so much better.

[jariten]

How could allowing him to become more powerful have enabled him to stop his mother from dying? Since when is it even possible for the Jedi to stop mortally-injured people from dying, even with the help of the Force?

clearly, in AotC, Anakin, with Palpatines guidance, believes that he is so powerful that he doesnt know where it might lead. his comment "i will be the most powerful Jedi ever" suggests that he believes he can surpass Obi, Yoda (as Palpatine suggests) and attain god knows what levels of power. Now, heres the important bit. so i`ll put it in bold text.

he believes that if Obi Wan wasnt holding him back and restricting him, that he could have obtained this power already and could have become powerful enough to stop people from dying

wether this is actually possible or not is irrelevant, the point is that he believes that he can do it. and his next line

"I will even learn to stop people from dying"

hes gonna use this power to keep the things he wants, to keep the things he loves. this leads to greed, which leads to the desire for more power, which leads straight to the darkside. Think about what Shmi said to him

"it is time for you to let go..."

"but I dont want things to change"

"but you cant stop the change..."

this is the tragedy of his character, he is completly unable to let go. its love that drives him to the darkside. regardless of what everyone thinks here, this is brilliantly crafted storytelling.

The fact that Anakin thinks this is possible is yet another example of his immaturity and his lack of understanding about what it means to be a Jedi.

like I said, he thinks he can surpass them. with Palpatines teaching, he doesnt know what hes capable of. notice he says "I will even learn to stop people from dying", suggesting that its something that hasnt been done that, but that hes going to do. "I promise you, I wont fail again". gave me goosebumps when he said that.

The only actual complaint Anakin makes about Obi-Wan is that he won't let him face the trials to become a Jedi Knight.

well, thats simply not true. he has a whole raft of complaints, all of them well founded. "hes overly critical, he never listens...he wont let me move on". Obi wan praises him once in the whole film, and Anakin looks so proud, surprised and happy that he looks like hes gonna fall over. If only Obi Wan was a better teacher, Anakin wouldnt have gone to Palpatine for his norishment.

And even if it had been possible to save her, that still wouldn't make Obi-Wan responsible for what happened next.

I agree entirely. its all on Anakins shoulders, and it`ll take him another 4 films to redeem himself from it. what I was trying to say that if Anakin had been raised as a Jedi better, and not bottled up, he wouldve learnt to control this rage, or filter his powers to other things. as it stood, all the pent up rage, anger and frustration came out in one go. the death of his mother broke him.

But what he actually uses his power for is to take over the galaxy, isn't it? Which anyone who saw his little Sand People episode, and his subsequent behaviour, could have predicted. This is why people who do things like that in real life are locked up in jail for the rest of their lives, rather than being allowed to go happily about their business - particularly as a so-called keeper of the peace!

how would he have been locked up? who wouldve done it? Padme?

we saw the Sand People running away from him

no we didnt.

If Anakin had a Jedi bone in his body he would have gone and turned himself into the authorities straight after the Sand People massacre

I sort of see what you mean, but your misunderstanding his character. Hes just lost his mother. he knows he has vast quantities of untapped power. he thinks that the sand people derserved exactly what they got. hes on the up and up. hes not going to sacrifice Padme by getting himself incarcarated. he is, and I quote, going to be "the most powerful jedi ever". thats whats driving him now, desire, greed, love, thirst for more and more power. hes on the path to the darkside, and a few dead tuskans arnt going to stop him.

This post has been edited by jariten: 06 September 2004 - 02:54 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

"I will even learn to stop people from dying."

This sounds like an eight year old.

this is the tragedy of his character, he is completly unable to let go. its love that drives him to the darkside. regardless of what everyone thinks here, this is brilliantly crafted storytelling.

Jariten, I don't think you'd know what brilliantly crafted storytelling was if it hit you in the back of the head.

"Now, I'm a goody two-shoes kid (blink), now I'm a scowly teen.
Obi Wan won't let me stay up late. He's holding me back - yo!
That Palpy guy I met in one two minute scene, he understands me, yeah.
And now I'm a Sith Lord!"

This is NOT brilliantly crafted storytelling. And no amount of head trauma or mind altering substances will make me change my mind.

[Helena]

like I said, he thinks he can surpass them. with Palpatines teaching, he doesnt know what hes capable of. notice he says "I will even learn to stop people from dying", suggesting that its something that hasnt been done that, but that hes going to do. "I promise you, I wont fail again". gave me goosebumps when he said that.

But this is the whole point! Anakin doesn't understand his limitations, despite Obi-Wan's trying to make them clear to him. Because of the whole 'Chosen One' thing he thinks he's some kind of super-human who can achieve things that no other Jedi can, and since Obi-Wan treats him as what he is - powerful, but a normal and flawed person with much to learn - he resents him. This is not Obi-Wan's fault; it's Anakin's fault for being so immature and arrogant!

well, thats simply not true. he has a whole raft of complaints, all of them well founded. "hes overly critical, he never listens...he wont let me move on". Obi wan praises him once in the whole film, and Anakin looks so proud, surprised and happy that he looks like hes gonna fall over. If only Obi Wan was a better teacher, Anakin wouldnt have gone to Palpatine for his norishment.

How are these complaints 'well-founded'? Yes, Obi-Wan is critical of him, but given the way he behaves this is hardly surprising. Just look at a few of the things Anakin does in the film: whines like a five-year-old; throws several temper tantrums; almost gets both of them killed in a speeder chase; develops a ridiculous teenage crush on a Galactic Senator; very deliberately pursues this relationship behind his master's back, even though he knows how dangerous this is; takes a woman he's supposed to be protecting to a dangerous, gangster-run planet to search for his mother; finds said mother dying and proceeds to kill everyone in the vicinity in revenge.

Of course Obi-Wan doesn't see all of these things, but if this is any indication of the way Anakin generally behaves then it's quite astonishing that Obi-Wan is as patient with his Padawan as he is. No, he doesn't praise him a lot (understandably, under the circumstances), but he's not particularly harsh either - certainly not much harsher than Qui-Gon, as far as I can see. Anakin goes to Palpatine because he wants his ego massaged, not because his master is unfair on him. And again, why would Palpatine have any sort of relationship with him in any case?

I agree entirely. its all on Anakins shoulders, and it`ll take him another 4 films to redeem himself from it. what I was trying to say that if Anakin had been raised as a Jedi better, and not bottled up, he wouldve learnt to control this rage, or filter his powers to other things. as it stood, all the pent up rage, anger and frustration came out in one go. the death of his mother broke him.

But Anakin never showed any signs of this 'pent-up rage' beforehand, and if he did he certainly shouldn't have been trained as a Jedi in the first place. I will say it once more: normal people simply do not react in this way, even to the death of a loved one. If Obi-Wan's mild criticism was all it took to store up this kind of frantic rage in Anakin, there is truly something very, very wrong with him. And given that all Anakin had displayed up to this point was minor frustration - presumably experienced by most Padawans who incorrectly believe themselves ready to become a Knight - how was Obi-Wan or anyone else supposed to know about all this incredible bottled-up anger inside of him?

how would he have been locked up? who wouldve done it? Padme?

Padme could have contacted the Jedi Council or whoever the nearest authorities were, or she could have asked the Lars family to do it for her. Presumably the Star Wars universe has some equivalent of telephones? Or she could have waited until they got back to Coruscant and done it there.

no we didnt.

We saw a frightened-looking child and him striding towards them.

I sort of see what you mean, but your misunderstanding his character. Hes just lost his mother. he knows he has vast quantities of untapped power. he thinks that the sand people derserved exactly what they got. hes on the up and up. hes not going to sacrifice Padme by getting himself incarcarated. he is, and I quote, going to be "the most powerful jedi ever". thats whats driving him now, desire, greed, love, thirst for more and more power. hes on the path to the darkside, and a few dead tuskans arnt going to stop him.

He should not be on the path to the Dark Side at this point. We should have seen some of his good qualities first, to give us some reason to sympathise with him and want Luke to redeem him - but we don't. Anakin's path to the Dark Side should have been gradual and subtle, not a sudden transition from 'frustrated adolescent' to 'wild-eyed murderer'. I cannot understand how anyone - especially someone as intelligent as you, jariten - could regard this as good character development.

And if he was going to fall to the Dark Side, it should have been there and then - how is it that Luke would go straight to the Dark Side by striking down the Emperor in RotJ, yet Anakin holds it off despite killing a village of innocent people? If the Dark Side is a qustion of giving into anger and hatred, surely he should be completely mired in it after that, not just 'on the path'?

[Fish1941]

But Obi-Wan's attitude towards Anakin is entirely understandable, given how Anakin behaves. He conspicuously fails to demonstrate even a hint of self-control, maturity, responsibility or any of the qualities that are at least as important to a Jedi as Force ability. Nor, come to that, does he show any evidence of 'superior ability' to Obi-Wan - sure, he claims to be 'more powerful' than his master, but it comes across as mere adolescent boasting. And since we know that Obi-Wan defeats him in a duel in Episode III, I don't see how he's going to demonstrate his superiority there either.

No, it isn't. Granted, Anakin was not the perfect Jedi student. But Obi-Wan was far from the perfect Jedi teacher. I find it interesting that most fans either want to blame Anakin or Obi-Wan, when both were at fault.

When Obi-Wan had stated in the OT that he was not a very good teacher, it is clear to me - after viewing the PT - that he was telling the truth.