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FORCEROIDS metabolicichlorines

#31 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 10:59 AM

It's all true.

There are somethings you just can't touch. And well known stories from the Bible are one of them. Walking on Water, Immaculate Conceptions, Smashing of tablets, eating of fruit, etc....


Lucas is an idiot. I remember VERY well sitting in the theatre seat when Shimi announced that Anakin did not have a father. I sunk in my chair and felt embarresed to be apart of the experience. I heard mutters around me and even dummied down laughter. I wish it never took place. Lucas could have written in a Gorilla, dressed in a yellow hawaiian suit, playing the guitar in lue for the birth scene and it would've been much more acceptable from the audience.

Scenes like the birth and PODrace announcers take me right out of the SW universe. It happened so much in TPM that I never truely felt like I was there. I was watching a movie that I did not understand.

That is what killed me about TPM. Every 5 seconds Lucas found a new way to kick you in the side of the head. AOTC felt more like SW.
Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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#32 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 11:06 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ Sep 5 2004, 02:32 PM)
hmm, well lets think about this for a second. the force appears to possess a will and desire of its own that is largely unknowable but that influences the lives and destinies of those it comes in contact with, is powerful, has a connection with people and a large group of robed followers. remind you of anything?

It's not a god. As Civ #2 pointed out, the original idea of the Force and the Jedi was based on Zen Buddhism - the whole thing about the Force having a 'will and desire of its own' was only dreamed up for the Prequels, as far as I can tell. And even if it did have some kind of 'will', in the sense that it pushes people in particular directions, that doesn't make it a god-like entity capable of impregnating people!
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#33 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 11:41 PM

I dunno about that. My mom had me because she was impregnated by Karma and if I remember correctly from a conversation we had once JYAMG's parents are Yin and Yang. And I'm pretty sure Laura popped out of a large mass of Tao.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#34 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 12:02 AM

And if Barend's new avatar is anything to go by, he was just magically born from a stone egg on a mountain top. cool.gif
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#35 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 01:49 AM

QUOTE
It's not a god. As Civ #2 pointed out, the original idea of the Force and the Jedi was based on Zen Buddhism - the whole thing about the Force having a 'will and desire of its own' was only dreamed up for the Prequels, as far as I can tell. And even if it did have some kind of 'will', in the sense that it pushes people in particular directions, that doesn't make it a god-like entity capable of impregnating people!


all I said was this-

1. the force is unknowable

2. it seems to have a will/motivation of its own

3. it had a long winded plan to bring about harmony in the galaxy, and as a powerful, unknowable, almost sentient force, it seems to have an incredible amount of power.

4. it used that power to create the person that would bring about the eventual harmony in the galaxy.

no, it is not a God. but if you take those things as red that I just typed, it certainly seems to have the characteristics of one.

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Bullshit. The force is a power that is in all living things, and a notion of body-mind unity. It can be tapped into to enhance one's sense of self, but it does not have ideas.


well, since it created a child, and the jedi frequently talk about the "guiding" power of the force, apparantly it does. whatever you choose to make of the influences Lucas chooses to help shape his films, the above is a fact. The force has a will.

"so it controls our actions?"

"partially, but it also obeys our commands"

sounds like a description of a seperate entity of some type to me.
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#36 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 06:34 AM

Rolling down a hill with your handbrake off will control the actions of your car as well. And when you put the handbrake back on, the laws of physics will also obey your commands. But I don't really see the laws of physics as being some sort of deity.

I thought what Obi Wan meant was that if you just relax and let the force flow through you, it will just do your work for you.

And remember it only partially controls your actions.

Your idea that it's got a big grand scheme for the galaxy is total bullshit.

And as for it being a fact, here's how facts go with Star Wars for me -

If something happened in the untainted version of the original trilogy, it's a fact in the Star Wars universe. If it's written by an author who knows how to write a good story, it's also a fact.

If it is total shit and taints the good image Star Wars used to hold, then it's not a fact.
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#37 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 06:45 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ Sep 6 2004, 07:49 AM)
all I said was this-

1. the force is unknowable

2. it seems to have a will/motivation of its own

3. it had a long winded plan to bring about harmony in the galaxy, and as a powerful, unknowable, almost sentient force, it seems to have an incredible amount of power.

4. it used that power to create the person that would bring about the eventual harmony in the galaxy.

no, it is not a God. but if you take those things as red that I just typed, it certainly seems to have the characteristics of one.

All the crap about the Force having a 'grand plan' for the galaxy, and creating the person who would bring harmony to the galaxy, was dreamed up for the Prequels. None of this is mentioned in the OT. And since the OT came first (and is much better), as far as I'm concerned, what we see in the OT is 'canon' and anything that contradicts it is not.

QUOTE
well, since it created a child, and the jedi frequently talk about the "guiding" power of the force, apparantly it does. whatever you choose to make of the influences Lucas chooses to help shape his films, the above is a fact. The force has a will.

"so it controls our actions?"

"partially, but it also obeys our commands"

sounds like a description of a seperate entity of some type to me.

No, jariten, this won't cut any ice with us. "Well, since it created a child it must be able to create a child." Can't you see how circular your argument is? How and why did it create a child? Since there was no indication whatsoever in the original Star Wars films that the Force was the kind of entity that could create a child, all this must be explained satisfactorily by Lucas if we're to have a hope of taking it seriously - and it isn't.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#38 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 03:36 PM

The idea that training will "control" your actions is modeled on martial arts kata. In the martial arts, kata (meaning "style" or "model") are basic punches and blocks practiced over and over again until they become part of muscle memory. Students continue practicing the same kata for years, constantly refining their movements, energy, and focus, even as they advance from white belt to black belt. This stuff has been romanticized all out proportion by monks and mystics who seem to feel a good exercise regime isn't as much fun as mysticism; hence all the martial arts are so enshrouded in pseudo-religious babble.

I think Lucas can be blamed in that scene of borrowing a little Zen training philosophy and mixing it in with the same vague mysticism to create the background for his quasi-religious Jedi.

I don't think he can be blamed for holding back his grand vision of a controlling entity in the form of microscopic organisms. That nonsense he pulled out of his ass at the last minute.

I agree with everyone who says Jariten is playing advocate for the wrong devil here: forget Obi Wan; it's mindless that Yoda would never mention Midi-hoosits in his training sessions. Lucas can't talk his way out of this one.

------------------------

PS: "Your father wanted you to have this, when you were older ..."

PPS: I thought of the funniest thing to say, and it really would have captured my feelings in a nutshell. That kind of tight witticism you're proud to come up with once in a year or so. Then I had to put a desk together for my girlfriend, and I can't remember what I wanted to say! By the time I remember it won't matter! Gaaaaaaaahhhh!
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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