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Why even the good stuff about the prequels is bad Lightsabers - get a whole lot more

#31 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 01 September 2004 - 09:56 AM

What a wonderful scene. Although I felt that it was missing something... perhaps Julie Andrews running across the meadow, singing.
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#32 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 01 September 2004 - 07:48 PM

Only invertebrate creatures with low midichlorian counts felt that there was a chance in hell that Dooku was good. First of all there was no corruption in the Jedi council and there's no way Jedi can be corrupt. What would they do, take bribes to keep the peace when they normally wouldn't? Or would they sell contraband lightsabers or something?

Also, his title is count. And when we first see him wtih Obi Wan he has Obi Wan tied up in some kind of floaty prison technology that was replaced in the future by metal handcuffs and prison cells... Apparently the technology of keeping prisoners floating in the air on an inverted rotisserie was lost. This will undoubtedly be explained in the coveted third movie.

The only thing confusing about him is what the hell he thinks he's doing. Ok, the trade federation trusted a Jedi once to lead them to victory. So then they got screwed over. Rather than warning the council to get revenge they join up with ANOTHER FUGGING JEDI! And then expect to win. And then he figures that since he seems like such a nice and hospitable host that he'll ask Obi Wan to join him. "Sorry about having you attacked, floating and rotating you in this room for who knows how long, leaving the Jedi council, wearing a black cape, carrying a red light saber and having an evil name. I'm really not evil. Why doncha join me? No? Ok, enjoy your stay."

As for the jedi slaughter in ep2 it was completely avoidable. They had a fuckoff huge army, they could have easily saved Anakin and the others. And why did Anakin and Padme and Obi Wan need saving in the first place? The should have had no problem getting out of that arena without any help. Moreover there is no fugging excuse for the presence of a droid army in the arena. I will eat my hat if Palpatine reveals that that arena business was a cunning trap for the Jedi to thin out their numbers.

And why couldnt an army of Jedi take out a bunch of droids? We learned in ep1 that one Jedi can bring horrible death to ten droids using force push. They should have had no problem at all. Also, why did Mace Windu decide to go after a worthless bounty hunter instead of the Sith lord? Is it because he knew the rule that (unlike in that silly old OT) PT Jedi are weak as fuck and the only way they can kill even a sith apprentice is if they surprise him in superior numbers while he's on the crapper? I mean come on Dooku owned three Jedi (including the amazing rubber bouncing master Yoda)

Wasn't there a time when Jedi did more than babysit children and act as the masters of droid salvage heaps? Wasn't there a time when a lone jedi could go one on one with a Sith Lord? Wasn't there a time when jedi were cool?

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 01 September 2004 - 07:53 PM

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#33 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 01 September 2004 - 09:27 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ Sep 1 2004, 08:43 AM)
the opening scene had 2 jedi against about 20 droids (if that) who were unprepared. there were thousands in AotC, including droidekas and those kick ass battle droids.

the odds were the same...
and given the size of the arena... only so many droids could be in there at a time.
plus they were all filing in through the one main enterance. surelly that many jedi could have pulled enough force out of their ass to create walls of deactivation, or something. dry.gif

bah, i've fought worse odds in real life, unarmed and intoxicated.
the jedi in the PT are PUSSIES!!!! i'm telling you. yell.gif
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#34 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 02 September 2004 - 12:05 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Sep 1 2004, 07:48 PM)
And when we first see him wtih Obi Wan he has Obi Wan tied up in some kind of floaty prison technology that was replaced in the future by metal handcuffs and prison cells...

tongue.gif

In the original Star Wars, the Jedi are cool to begin with, because we don't know anything about them. All we know is what we're told. And wasn't Sir Alec up for best-supporting Actor that year?

So these are the jedi of old? Sorry I wasted my time.




the arena scene brings to mind a strand of those tiny colored Christmas lights that flicker brilliantly; don't work anymore.
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#35 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 02 September 2004 - 12:54 AM

J M HorfMarN. That was a most excellent post. I salute you. These things needed to be said. And I hope Jariten and Sinbad take the time to read them.
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#36 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 02 September 2004 - 03:13 AM

you called?

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The only thing confusing about him is what the hell he thinks he's doing. Ok, the trade federation trusted a Jedi once to lead them to victory. So then they got screwed over.


they didnt trust a Jedi, they trusted a sith. and its all turning out rosy for the Federation, as far as I can see. At the end of TPM Panaka says to Gunray "you can kiss your trade franchise goodbye". but lo and behold, 10 years later theyre still going strong. why? because Palpatine is pulling the strings, helping them out. hes evil, but he looks after his own. The Federation have only gained so far. "after 4 trials in the supreme court Nute Gunray is still the leader of the Trade Federation" and all that.

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And then expect to win.


of course they do. they have so far.

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"Sorry about having you attacked, floating and rotating you in this room for who knows how long, leaving the Jedi council, wearing a black cape, carrying a red light saber and having an evil name. I'm really not evil. Why doncha join me? No? Ok, enjoy your stay."


Obi didnt know Dooku was a sith at that point. all he knew was that he was in charge of the seperatists who were about to push the galaxy into a civil war. Dooku tells Obi the truth, which is the most dangerous thing for them, because at the end they dont know what to believe, their numbers are depleted and theyre edgy. even Yoda thinks theyve lost, that something bad is going to happen. Dookus offer to Obi Wan was to destroy the sith, not to join them.

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As for the jedi slaughter in ep2 it was completely avoidable. They had a fuckoff huge army


of about 50 jedi.

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And why did Anakin and Padme and Obi Wan need saving in the first place?


that wasnt the purpose of the mission. the purpose was to stop Dooku from kicking the war off (which Palpatine was controlling from both sides. the plot of these films is brilliant, and JYAMG, i`ll never be convinced otherwise)

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The should have had no problem getting out of that arena without any help.


considering they got captured pretty quick going in, how do you propose they get out?

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Moreover there is no fugging excuse for the presence of a droid army in the arena.


except for the massive droid factory underneath it.

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Also, why did Mace Windu decide to go after a worthless bounty hunter instead of the Sith lord?


because Jango flew down to kill him!!! Mace just finished what Jango started.

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We learned in ep1 that one Jedi can bring horrible death to ten droids using force push.


where was that? Obi pushed over 2. Qui pushed over 1.

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I mean come on Dooku owned three Jedi (including the amazing rubber bouncing master Yoda)


Dooku did not beat Yoda. if anything, Dooku escaped from him. and hes really hard, thats why he could take on Obi and Anakin (whos only a padawan anyway)

Wasn't there a time when Jedi did more than babysit children and act as the masters of droid salvage heaps?

havnt got to time to list all the things they did, but yes of course.

Wasn't there a time when a lone jedi could go one on one with a Sith Lord?

in episode 1. and episode 3.

Wasn't there a time when jedi were cool?

yup. right now.
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Posted 02 September 2004 - 09:25 AM

QUOTE
the plot of these films is brilliant, and JYAMG, i`ll never be convinced otherwise


Oh you will. Not by me. Not even by Helena or Civilian Number Two but you will. After watching these movies over and over again, you're going to see them as they really are - the way the rest of us saw them the first time....


.... and then you're going to break down and cry.


When you're finished, just remember, if you come online, we'll be there to help.
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#38 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 02 September 2004 - 12:37 PM

Dooku's plan makes no sense whatsoever. So he kidnaps and imprisons Obi-Wan, then proceeds to tell him the truth about the Senate being under the control of the Sith - like a Bond villain who helpfully explains his evil scheme for world domination in its entirety. Why? Is it supposed to be some kind of weird reverse psychology? If it is, then it's both pointless and pretty damn risky - the Jedi previously had no inkling of Sith involvement in the Republic government, yet now Dooku has planted the idea in Obi-Wan's head. Suppose Obi-Wan had believed him, what then?

On top of that, you'd think Obi-Wan would have at least mentioned Dooku's claims to the Council afterwards. Given obvious clues like the Trade Federation's miraculous evasion of justice, and the fact that Palpatine was currently engaged in obtaining himself draconian emergency powers, surely someone would eventually have put two and two together! But he doesn't, and so yet again the villains' plans only succeed due to the fact that all the good guys are complete morons.
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The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

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Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#39 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 02 September 2004 - 02:34 PM

QUOTE
Dooku's plan makes no sense whatsoever. So he kidnaps and imprisons Obi-Wan, then proceeds to tell him the truth about the Senate being under the control of the Sith - like a Bond villain who helpfully explains his evil scheme for world domination in its entirety. Why? Is it supposed to be some kind of weird reverse psychology? If it is, then it's both pointless and pretty damn risky - the Jedi previously had no inkling of Sith involvement in the Republic government, yet now Dooku has planted the idea in Obi-Wan's head. Suppose Obi-Wan had believed him, what then?


I dunno.

Maybe, since the Jedi are too dense to figure out that Palpatine is Darth Sidious and that Anakin is a dark Jedi, Dooku probably reasoned that even the Jedi are too damn stupid to figure out his lame-o plot!! biggrin.gif

QUOTE
"On top of that, you'd think Obi-Wan would have at least mentioned Dooku's claims to the Council afterwards. Given obvious clues like the Trade Federation's miraculous evasion of justice, and the fact that Palpatine was currently engaged in obtaining himself draconian emergency powers, surely someone would eventually have put two and two together! But he doesn't, and so yet again the villains' plans only succeed due to the fact that all the good guys are complete morons."


I think Obi-Wan didn;t tell the Jedi council because he was still sore at them for leaving him with that whiny little bitch, Anakin. No offense!! laugh.gif
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#40 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 02 September 2004 - 09:01 PM

I would have shot obi wan while he was flaoting in those bonds...
then i would have killed jenga fett and framed him for the first murder...
then i would have slice anikan in half if he asked any questions...

then everyone would think i was a hero...
bwah ha ha ha haha

without the stadium antics, there would be no reason for yoda to be able to 'sense' the dark side...

-------------------------------------------------------

i hate writers who know nothing about a how a true diabolical mind works...

This post has been edited by barend: 02 September 2004 - 09:04 PM

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#41 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 02 September 2004 - 11:14 PM

QUOTE
Dooku's plan makes no sense whatsoever. So he kidnaps and imprisons Obi-Wan, then proceeds to tell him the truth about the Senate being under the control of the Sith - like a Bond villain who helpfully explains his evil scheme for world domination in its entirety. Why?


what we, and the jedi are left with at the end is both a feeling of resignation and dread. first of all they dont know if Dooku is lying or not. secondly, even if they did believe him, what could they do?? Yoda seems to think theyve lost, or that something bad will happen, and that they are powerless to stop it.

QUOTE
On top of that, you'd think Obi-Wan would have at least mentioned Dooku's claims to the Council afterwards


he did. then he said that it "doesnt feel right". confusion, anxiety, sense of approaching doom etc. etc.

edit- spelling...

This post has been edited by jariten: 02 September 2004 - 11:16 PM

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#42 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 02:44 AM

QUOTE
of course they do. they have so far.


No they havn't. Their entire army got destroyed in ep 1 and it pretty much happened again in ep 2. And while you're talking about the subject of their four trials in the supreme court how the hell did they ever get off four times without tipping people off that something was rotten on corruscant? I mean, come on. There were piles of dead gungans and humans and a Jedi corpse. What was their defense?

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Obi didnt know Dooku was a sith at that point. all he knew was that he was in charge of the seperatists who were about to push the galaxy into a civil war. Dooku tells Obi the truth, which is the most dangerous thing for them, because at the end they dont know what to believe, their numbers are depleted and theyre edgy. even Yoda thinks theyve lost, that something bad is going to happen. Dookus offer to Obi Wan was to destroy the sith, not to join them.


If Obi Wan didn't know Dooku was a Sith at THAT point than that puts a whole new spin on how Darth Vader Killed him. If Obi Wan is that stupid then I'm guessing Vader just said "Hey look over there" and then sliced him up. Obi Wan, like the entire audience, could tell that count Dooku was evil in the blink of an eye. And another thing, what is with that bent lightsaber?

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As for the jedi slaughter in ep2 it was completely avoidable. They had a fuckoff huge army

of about 50 jedi.


I meant the clone army.

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that wasnt the purpose of the mission. the purpose was to stop Dooku from kicking the war off (which Palpatine was controlling from both sides. the plot of these films is brilliant, and JYAMG, i`ll never be convinced otherwise)


They could have done that with one guy, or just hired a bounty hunter, who would have then hired an assassin, who would then send a worm to kill Dooku while he was on the crapper!

Also, the fact that they didn't assail the seperatist leadership is another flaw. Couldn't the Jedi have just surrounded the seperatist leaders ( nicely packaged in one spot ) and told them to surrender or die, rather than using an opposite strategy and having THEMSELVES surrounded?

QUOTE
considering they got captured pretty quick going in, how do you propose they get out?


Well they had the part about getting off the pillars down, all they had to do was use force persuasion to get some blasters from the guards and then run through the arena, which didn't appear to be terribly well defended.

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except for the massive droid factory underneath it.


DANGER WILL ROBINSON, CONVENIENCE LEVEL IS AT MAXIMUM DANGER DANGER!

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because Jango flew down to kill him!!! Mace just finished what Jango started


It dosn't matter. Jedi are allowed to run from a battle, especially with silly extra characters who do nothing. He should have been pursuing Dooku.

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Dooku did not beat Yoda. if anything, Dooku escaped from him. and hes really hard, thats why he could take on Obi and Anakin (whos only a padawan anyway)


Dooku fought off and beat two Jedi at once before finally kind of being beaten by a third Jedi after a protracted battle.

Maul fought off two Jedi at once, killed one of them, and finally died after having his weapon broken in two and being attacked by surprise.

The Jedi aren't looking to good here... Like I said the only way Tyranous is dying in ep 3 is if a horde of Jedi attacks him while he's using the bathroom and possibly drunk. Also, the Jedi will need ten sided lightsabers.

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#43 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 05:08 AM

QUOTE
No they havn't. Their entire army got destroyed in ep 1 and it pretty much happened again in ep 2. And while you're talking about the subject of their four trials in the supreme court how the hell did they ever get off four times without tipping people off that something was rotten on corruscant? I mean, come on. There were piles of dead gungans and humans and a Jedi corpse. What was their defense?


those losses to their profits from those battles were minor compared to what they potentially stand to gain from the clone wars. actually, the fact that they are still going at all, with a whole new droid army, suggests they are doing pretty well from this deal they made with Sidious. Why could they get through 4 trials? because Palpatine's influence spreads right through the senate. Dooku speaks of the corruption in the senate, and Qui Gon thought the same. It was failing by the time of TPM anyway. the physical structure of the senate chamber is a brilliant visual comment on the ineffectuality of it.

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If Obi Wan didn't know Dooku was a Sith at THAT point than that puts a whole new spin on how Darth Vader Killed him. If Obi Wan is that stupid then I'm guessing Vader just said "Hey look over there" and then sliced him up. Obi Wan, like the entire audience, could tell that count Dooku was evil in the blink of an eye. And another thing, what is with that bent lightsaber?


clearly Obi wan didnt trust him. theres a massive difference between being just evil and being a sith. he had the curved sabre cos it looked distinguished.

QUOTE
I meant the clone army.


ok, but your getting the order of events confused. the clone army did stop the jedi massacre as soon as they got there. they fought, were overwhelmed, then rescued. you say the jedi massacre could have been prevented by the clone army. well, it was.

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They could have done that with one guy, or just hired a bounty hunter, who would have then hired an assassin, who would then send a worm to kill Dooku while he was on the crapper!


they could have sent an assassin to a planet whos massive defences protected Dooku, the man who was about to start a civil war?! one guy could have done that? righty-o.

QUOTE
Also, the fact that they didn't assail the seperatist leadership is another flaw. Couldn't the Jedi have just surrounded the seperatist leaders ( nicely packaged in one spot ) and told them to surrender or die, rather than using an opposite strategy and having THEMSELVES surrounded?


the thousands of battle droids flowing out of the gates on all sides and generally having a lot of firepower made that a bit difficult.

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Well they had the part about getting off the pillars down, all they had to do was use force persuasion to get some blasters from the guards and then run through the arena, which didn't appear to be terribly well defended.


except for all the geonosian warriors and the thousand battle droids i just mentioned. and blasters?? How do you deflect blaster shots with a blaster? run through the arena? to where? they were about to be killed when the jedi turned up.

QUOTE
DANGER WILL ROBINSON, CONVENIENCE LEVEL IS AT MAXIMUM DANGER DANGER!


OMG. they were manufacturing thousands of droids under geonosis. isnt it logical to assume that these droids would have to be moved from there to the surface of the planet? dont they need some way of doing that? isnt it possible that they had these exits all over the place, and that one of these would be beneath that arena? and that Dooku, being a bit clever, decided to prepare for every eventuality and have the droids on standby in case things went wrong and the jedi turned up? (which Dooku probably suspected they would since that Geonosian saw Obi Wan making a transmission)

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It dosn't matter. Jedi are allowed to run from a battle, especially with silly extra characters who do nothing. He should have been pursuing Dooku.


while being shot in the back by Jango? dont you think it would be wise to take out the immediate threat?

QUOTE
Dooku fought off and beat two Jedi at once before finally kind of being beaten by a third Jedi after a protracted battle.

Maul fought off two Jedi at once, killed one of them, and finally died after having his weapon broken in two and being attacked by surprise.


isnt it possible that some jedi/sith are stronger than others? or have fighting techniques that are more/less effective against some jedi/sith than others? or that every jedi/sith is unique and individual? Obi beat Maul because he surprised him. Maul was stronger than both Jedi combined. Dooku beat Anakin and Obi Wan because he was stronger than him. Yoda was going to win because he was stronger than Dooku. whats the problem here? the sith are intelligent and strong, thats why they win.
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#44 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 06:33 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ Sep 3 2004, 05:14 AM)
what we, and the jedi are left with at the end is both a feeling of resignation and dread. first of all they dont know if Dooku is lying or not. secondly, even if they did believe him, what could they do?? Yoda seems to think theyve lost, or that something bad will happen, and that they are powerless to stop it.

This still doesn't explain why Dooku thinks it's necessary to jeapordise his entire plan in order to give the Jedi a sense of 'resignation and dread'. Wouldn't killing off half the Jedi and starting a full-scale civil war be more than enough to do this, and considerably less risky to boot? As for the Jedi being 'powerless to stop it', it would surely have been far easier to stop Palpatine if they'd started investigating him straight away, rather than allowing him to consolidate his power.

QUOTE
he did. then he said that it "doesnt feel right". confusion, anxiety, sense of approaching doom etc. etc.

OK, so it's the Council who look stupid rather than Obi-Wan. Not that this isn't entirely consistent with their previous behaviour, e.g. allowing Anakin to be trained against their own better judgement and appointing an emotionally unstable Padawan as bodyguard to an important politician. Even so, given that Dooku had spoken of the Sith 'controlling the senate', you'd think someone might have made the connection to Palpatine. Here you have two galactic crises in 10 years, both of which scream Sith involvement and both of which clearly benefit one particular politician - yet all the Jedi can think of is 'keeping a closer eye on the Senate'?
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#45 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 08:38 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ Sep 3 2004, 05:08 AM)
the physical structure of the senate chamber is a brilliant visual comment on the ineffectuality of it.

Apply same to the PT franchise if you will.
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