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Why even the good stuff about the prequels is bad Lightsabers - get a whole lot more

#1 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 02:30 AM

Now, let me begin with a brief reminiscence - In 1999, while awaiting the prequels with a soon-to-be shattered glee, I heard an awful lot of hype about the lightsaber fights - these wouldn't be the original trilogy-style fights, but new lightsaber fights in "the prime of the Jedi", between powerful, fully-trained youthful Jedi and their enemies - not, as so delicately put "crippled half-human machines, old men and kids who learned from them."

These lightsaber fights were impressive, and they were the high points of the craptastic prequels, but however, they were ... I'm looking for a word here - starts with 'b' and ends with 'ad'. That's it, thank you very much, bad.

Now before I go into the prequels to sort this mess out, I'm not pretending that the Ben Kenobi-Darth Vader fight was an action masterpiece. The fight was much more impressive as a powerful dialogue interspersed with a gentle, slow and graceful little battle. But the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi lightsaber duels - well-paced, fought between shadow and shade, with two characters we know, so we feel involved in the fight and caught up in the pace, with a heavy dosage of darkness and emotion.

Now for the prequels. It begins in the desert - with about ten seconds between a guy we are still getting to know and a freaky bogeyman who, despite several short scenes involving a bike that never gets dirty and some floating soccer balls, we have no idea who he is. It's too fast moving, it starts to suddenly and is over to soon to get into - unless you're ready for it, the lightsaber battle leaves you with the feeling that you have just missed the bus.

Then we have the big lightsaber battle of Episode I. The freaky bogeyman, who we now know to be a silent alien who looks like like a perfectly normal human who had an accident in a dye factory and has covered himself in a big black cloak to hide the fact he looks stupid. We are used to a certain style from everyone, and this guys style - as seen in the last duel is to charge in and start hacking to pieces, moving with a great deal of speed and surprise. However, he just stands there, takes off his hood to show the world why he is so pissed off, and slowly activates the marvellous gimmick he's given. Darth Maul, a Sith warrior who should be dedicated religiously to the spread of evil who for some reason is doing the dirty work for a grubby trade federation wields a double-bladed lightsaber. Now despite the fact that such a weapon is quite likely to cut your feet off, our angry red bogeyman wields it like a cheerleaders baton and seems perfectly capable of holding off two Jedi at once. The fight leaves an impressive, semi-ruined building with a nice temple/palace/fortress feel and adjourns to a freakish chamber with a whole heap of wonderful platforms. The abundance of platforms is reminiciscent of the Death Star interior, however, unlike the Death Star is neither a real set or a realistic one. The fight moves too fast to be followed, and an overdose of falling, jumping and running make the actual lightsaber duel bits short and inneffective. Though the idea of the episodic lightsaber battle worked in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, the battle here is broken into a great many small episodes. The battle is devoid of emotion, and the characters are still too unfamiliar to get caught up with. It ends with a crappy hallway with a whole heap of little shields that turn off and on, and a fight around a shaft that probably should have a safety railing around it. Darth Maul's double lightsaber is cut in half, and turns out just to be two lightsabers stuck together with super duper glue, so he still has a working saber. Qui-Gon Jinn is cut down, and in keeping with the Jedi tradition, his body fades as though to nothing - hang on... no it doesn't. The only half-fledged Jedi Padawan (why such a stupid name) with stupid hair that does not even remotely smack of the wise and gentle Obi-Wan Kenobi brillaintly portrayed by the superbly talented and experienced Alec Guiness charges in and somehow kills the freaky bogeyman, who falls bloodlessly down the against-workplace-health-and-safety power shaft, and again in keeping with tradition, explodes as though the darkness and power within him were escaping his dead body - hang on... no he doesn't.
Then Obi-Wan is told the news that he can loose his dumb haircut, and pass it on to the annoying boy.

Then, there is Episode II - which has, not just lightsaber duels but a lightsaber war - but even in this craptastic piece of crap they fail to shine. An army of Jedi appears late in the movie to rescue two jedi and a remote planetary senator from three stupid monsters. Then, into a crappy coliseum, two armies of droids are released, who encircle the jedi, and despite the fact that the Jedi are each their very own Spiderman, many of them are cut down by the stupid machine armies.
All this to rescue one stupid guy we dont like, one smart guy we do and a rather cute young woman. Now if it was to kill Anakin, save Obi-Wan, and save several thousand cute young women, I'd be all for the depletion of the galactic peacekeepers. Then the Jedi hop onto humorous space-age versions of helicopter gunships, and charge after the stupid trade federation navy that was supposed to have been blown up in the first one. The helicopter gunship carrying stupid Anakin and fairly cool Obi-Wan chases after the airspeeder carrying the legendary Count Dracula here playing the crappy Count Dooku and just happens to be out of missiles so it can't blast him out of the sky. Amazing. Becuase of this, they have to follow him, and go fight him on foot with lightsabers. Stupid Anakin fails strategy 101 by not even grasping the basic "one, two, three GET HIM!" (terrible work Anakin, you'll have to do much better if you dont want to repeat Kindergarten again). Dooku (what kind of crappy name is Dooku) then, despite the fact that we know him to be the Emperor's dirty work guy, hurls lightning bolts that kick the crap out of the Emperors magic zapper from Return of the Jedi. Then there's a bit of dancing around, and then it finishes off with Anakin wielding two lightsabers, a discipline he probably hasn't trained in since he still has the Jedi version of Learner Driver plates - stupid hair. The fight is probably quite cool, but the long shots of it are too dark to see anything and an inordinate amount of time is spent looking at the faces of the two combatants. Then Dooku cuts off Anakin's hand, and proceeds to walk away. Then, on shuffling footsteps, comes Yoda. Yoda, who is more of a teacher than warrior, wearing an interesting combination of his usual rags and a funky jump suit, pulls a rabbit out a hat by "using the force" to deflect Dooku's powers. Then Dooku says "I see we cannot settle this with our knowledge of the force alone." Knowledge of the force? Interesting way of putting it - as though it were something like calculus. Nothing to do with power, or focus or control.
Then Yoda takes his pocket-sized lightsaber, and turns into the Whirlwind Muppet of Death. He moves with crazy and over the top speed, and is simply hit back to the ground by the six-foot plus Dooku like an insane tennis ball. Dooku then flies away in the Mary Poppins stealth ship, leaving an exhausted Yoda, an injured Obi-Wan and a dumb one-armed Anakin with stupid hair.

So as I said - even the good bits are crappy.
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#2 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 06:04 AM

Welcome back, Mnesymone. Long time, no see. cool.gif

(Mnesymone made his first post at the same time I made mine.)

I agree wholeheartedly about the lightsaber fights in the prequels. We didn't know enough about all the combatants in each case -

Darth Maul - Kiss's first drummer who was kicked out of the band before they made it big.

Trade Federation Droids - Um... okay. Why the hell were they there? And why the hell would any Jedi worth his weight in "midichlorians" have any trouble with these things?

Count Dookoo - One of the most poorly introduced, undeveloped characters in the history of cinema.

It doesn't mean anything.

QUOTE
The fight leaves an impressive, semi-ruined building with a nice temple/palace/fortress feel and adjourns to a freakish chamber with a whole heap of wonderful platforms. The abundance of platforms is reminiciscent of the Death Star interior, however, unlike the Death Star is neither a real set or a realistic one.


Ah, the interior of the palace of Naboo.... one of the most unconvincing locales I've ever seen. Just how does this fit with the exterior - an old stone building on a hill?

It's bad enough that Lucas can't keep any consistency with the original movies... but here, he can't even stay consistant within one movie.

QUOTE
The fight moves too fast to be followed, and an overdose of falling, jumping and running make the actual lightsaber duel bits short and inneffective.


Thank you. It needs to be said far more often. The highlight of this shitty movie was still, well... shitty.

QUOTE
Stupid Anakin fails strategy 101 by not even grasping the basic "one, two, three GET HIM!" (terrible work Anakin, you'll have to do much better if you dont want to repeat Kindergarten again).


Lucas clearly forgot that scene in Star Wars where Obi Wan described Luke's father as a cunning warrior.

Regarding the other shitty fight in Episode II, this

QUOTE
The fight is probably quite cool, but the long shots of it are too dark to see anything and an inordinate amount of time is spent looking at the faces of the two combatants.


is as good a description as any of what that looked like.



Another great post, Mnesymone! smile.gif Very true, very well explained.... and thoroughly entertaining as well. Too many beautiful lines in there to mention, such as the analogy of the Padawan haircut to a Learner's Plate, and your description of Dookoo's Mary Poppins stealth ship was the best one I've ever seen for that.

A five-out-of-five star post. smile.gif
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#3 User is offline   Xombie Icon

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 08:36 AM

And then there is that mystifying moment in TPM when D. Maul whips back his hood to reveal dramatically that....

He has horns!!!!!!!!

Uh....yeah....so? That means what, George? He's an alien. With horns. I mean, why the dramatic pause in the action like something is being revealed? He has horns....SO THE FUCK WHAT?!!!
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#4 User is offline   The Spinning Corpse of Gary Kurtz Icon

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:15 AM

Yeah...and it's not even like the horns were a big surprise!!...Darth Maul's mugshot had already been plastered on every frigging magazine, cereal box and junk food container the world over!!!

It's that shot with the hologram on the walking chair that blows me away...I challenge anyone to try and find an uglier scene in any movie ever made...It's impossible. When did that scene ever seem like a good idea?...
Darth Maul looks like he's played by Kenny Baker in that shot...he's tiny!
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#5 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 11:12 AM

I agree wholeheartedly, there are 3 things I'll disagree with slightly though.

1. The red shield walls in TPM - Even though I have no idea why the hell they were there, this made for the only really cool scene of the fight, so it gets points for that. You have Maul pacing back and forth and Qui-Gon meditating before the fight, and it's the only real tension-builder of the fight.

2. Maul falls bloodlessly because the lightsaber cauterizes when it cuts, same as Luke's cut-off hand doesn't spurt blood.

3. The long shots of Anakin-Dooku COULD have been cool if the stayed on them. The lightsabers lit it up enough for us to know who was who, and seeing them fight in the dark would have been very cool. But as you said, Lucas decided, for some reason, to go to closeups of each guy so we had NO idea what was going on.

Fabulous post.
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#6 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 05:07 AM

were given just enough information about the character to help the story progress. Darth Maul is Sidious' heavy, sent on a mission to capture the queen, whom the jedi are protecting. theres the set up right there- good vs. evil. we know what the bad guys mission is, we know what the good guys mission is. when they fight at the end it feels like the natural climax of Mauls pursuit of the queen/jedi which had been progressing throughout the entire film. Mauls lack of screen time is also Lucas' attempt to preserve the mystery of the sith, a story which lucas has planned slowly so enough that it will take 3 films to resolve- for the first film though, all we need to know is this- who are they? what do they want? all we know is that theyre dangerous, and they pose a threat to the good guys.

likewise, were not supposed to be entirly sure of Dookus (its japanese for 'poison' by the way) intentions. theres something dark and disturbing about his character that i really like, an idea developed by Lucas keeping him shrouded in reference and discussion until near the end when he finally puts in an appearance. whats going on with him? whos side is he on? what does he want? Lucas keeps us guessing until the final scenes of the film, where its revealed Dooku is Tyrannus, and Palpatines continuting manipulation of events his slow rise to power, and the siths plan becomes a little clearer. the conclusion is, naturally, in the third film.
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#7 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 08:41 AM

It seems that everything hinges on this magical third film. I really do hope you get your explanations, Jariten, for your sake - because I have a feeling that you are going to get left feeling let-down, disappointed and abused.
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#8 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 12:12 PM

Lucas clearly forgot that scene in Star Wars where Obi Wan described Luke's father as a cunning warrior.

{Gusher speak} But, Obi-Wan is referring to Anakin AFTER he becomes Darth Vader {end Gusher speak}

Yeah, I guess I would become pretty cunning, too, after having my body immersed in lava.... SNORT
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#9 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 01:41 PM

Lucas clearly forgot that scene in Star Wars where Obi Wan described Luke's father as a cunning warrior.

{Gusher speak} did he? i thought he was reffering to when Anakin single handedly captured a dangerous bounty hunter after Obi had given up, how he took on a legion of battle droids and survived, and how he faced and saved his master from a sith lord {end Gusher speak}
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#10 User is offline   Sagacity Icon

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 03:25 PM

QUOTE
did he? i thought he was reffering to when Anakin single handedly captured a dangerous bounty hunter after Obi had given up


When the hell did that happen? Anakin sure didn't look like he was capturing Zam while he was shining her airspeeder with his body, and that was Obi-Wan who lopped off her gun hand when she was about to shoot him in the back, wasn't it? The only thing Anakin gets credit for is being at the scene of the crime.

QUOTE
how he took on a legion of battle droids and survived


Um, there were other Jedi in that arena, and they were ostensibly doing the same thing he was: taking as many of the droids out as possible and watching their backs and others'. The bulk of them walked (or flew) away to fight another day, just like he did.

QUOTE
and how he faced and saved his master from a sith lord


Saved? Okay, if "saved" means violating the most basic rules of engagement and common sense, and getting his lunch handed to him (as well as his arm).
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#11 User is offline   Commoner Icon

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 06:28 PM

If Obi-Wan had said, "foolhardy," that might fly.
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#12 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 08:38 PM

Good essay. The fights in Episode one were entertaining if they were singled out for just fighting. But the fights in Episode 2 were total crap. Too much CGI and too little action. Not to mention the fact that I never thought I'd ever see Jedi getting their ass kicked so bad! ohmy.gif
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#13 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 11:43 PM

That was incredible, wasn't it?

For over a thousand generations the jedi knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic...

before they faced some actual problem and had to do something about it...

before they had to put their money where their mouths were...

and then they got their asses kicked.




EDIT - Also, good post by Sagacity by the way. And Jariten, I give you full marks for endurance and unfailing loyalty... but you were clutching at straws there...
very little straws.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 28 August 2004 - 11:46 PM

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#14 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 01:04 AM

QUOTE
When the hell did that happen?


when he leaped out of the speeder, fell a long way, landed on Zams speeder, and brought it down while holding on in mid air while the speeder was going god knows how fast.

QUOTE
Um, there were other Jedi in that arena, and they were ostensibly doing the same thing he was: taking as many of the droids out as possible and watching their backs and others'. The bulk of them walked (or flew) away to fight another day, just like he did.


maybe they were all cunning warriors too?? he managed to survive when many others didnt. after watching AotC, did you still doubt that Anakin wasnt a special, gifted Jedi, a sigificant cut above the others?

QUOTE
Saved? Okay, if "saved" means violating the most basic rules of engagement and common sense, and getting his lunch handed to him (as well as his arm).


i meant were he leaped the full distance of the room to stop Dooku from cutting Obi Wan in two. if someone did that for me i might be inclined, when reminising about them , to say something positive about them later.

considering the context the line was delivered in (a quick, two comment summary to a son about his dead father), I doubt future audiences will question it.

This post has been edited by jariten: 29 August 2004 - 01:06 AM

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#15 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 01:48 AM

QUOTE
considering the context the line was delivered in (a quick, two comment summary to a son about his dead father), I doubt future audiences will question it.


unless they change that line in the new super special OT to cram things consistent with the enchanting PT, RIGHT? Fine.

How could you possibly care about the forgettable originals?

___

Great post, SagaCity. I thought I'd really missed something there, but your points made the uncomprehensible, annoyingly clear.
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