[Just your average movie goer]

As for the Jedi resolving their difficulties, that would have been easy. When they came up behind the bad guys in the colesium, they could have very easily taken out Dookoo, Jango and their termite friends.

As for the battle droids, there was no need to have been involved with them at all. GENERAL YODA ( ) was coming with a shitload of clones and heavy artillery.

But as J M HorfMarN said, the jedi were idiots and they almost snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by letting themselves get surrounded.

I don't feel like going into a great in-depth discussion about this now but I'd just like to say, Jariten... mate, the climactic battle at the end of Attack of the Clones is a MESS. It makes no sense whatsoever. Nobody uses their brains and for the most part, it's a bit hard to take seriously when they're playing Threepio's comedy hour over the top.

Some other questions -

Why the hell was Dookoo's ship hanger so goddamn far away from his headquarters? Narita Airport, 50 km outside of Tokyo, is more convenient.

What's with all the doom and gloom at the end? There's no need for it. When Yoda says the clone wars are about to begin, that's such a silly line. How can the clone wars begin? The Republic has all the clones. Sure Palpatine is pulling the strings but he can't exactly order the clone army to exterminate the Jedi - not without perhaps raising some suspicions. It would have been much better, and made much more sense, to have the Clone Wars as the being the Republic's war with an Imperialistic or an Anarchist group, who use clone soldiers.

Then Palpatine could manipulate this emergency to his advantage (rather than manipulating a trade blockade! Wow... big emergency there).

Another question (and don't tell me the answer is because a Jedi never uses the force for attack) - when Dookoo escaped, he did so by using the force to throw a heavy pillar at Obi Wan and Anakin. Now Yoda stopped and then used the force to throw it aside, while Dookoo got away. Why the hell didn't he throw it to the other side and cripple Dookoo's escape ship?

When 900 years old you reach, lose your brain, you sometimes do?

[Mike Mac from NYU]

the physical structure of the senate chamber is a brilliant visual comment on the ineffectuality of it.



Apply same to the PT franchise if you will.

Nicely, put. and so true!!!!!

[Mike Mac from NYU]

Jariten

The fact that you have to EXPLAIN Palpatines plan, shows the primary weakness of the PT films.

In the OT, VERY little time was spent on the politics of the Imperial-Rebellion war.

All we knew was that there was a Rebellion and Empire fighting a war.

What the OT films chose to concentrate on where the stories of Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Leia,.

and how they played out under the BACKDROP of this Galactic War.

The War was a part of the SCENERY!!!! :angry:

The PT films should have been the same.

Concentrated on the stories of Anakin, Obi-Wan and Amidala

Instead these movies wasted valuable celluloid on an some stupid nebulous, preposterous plot of Palpatines that we probably never know completely after the third film.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO WAST THAT MUCH TIME ON PALPATINE"S PLOT TO GET POWER!!!!!

What is important is that he USED Anakin as his tool in gaining power!!!!!!!

Something that is only mentioned in ONE F'ing scene of ATOC!!!!!!!!!!!!



Geez, that was nasty. posting

Maybe some of civilian two is rubbing of on me.

{JUST KIDIDING, civ!!!!!!!!!!}

[J m HofMarN]

those losses to their profits from those battles were minor compared to what they potentially stand to gain from the clone wars. actually, the fact that they are still going at all, with a whole new droid army, suggests they are doing pretty well from this deal they made with Sidious. Why could they get through 4 trials? because Palpatine's influence spreads right through the senate. Dooku speaks of the corruption in the senate, and Qui Gon thought the same. It was failing by the time of TPM anyway. the physical structure of the senate chamber is a brilliant visual comment on the ineffectuality of it.

It dosn't matter how much power Palpatine has. There's no way he should have been able to get the trade federation acquitted of horrible galactic genocide. Then again maybe they let them go because they killed a lot of Gungans.

clearly Obi wan didnt trust him. theres a massive difference between being just evil and being a sith. he had the curved sabre cos it looked distinguished.

So than why have him tempt Obi Wan at all if everyone knows he's an evil liar. Vader trying to get Luke to join him is sensible because Luke really could do it. Dooku trying to get Obi Wan to join him makes no sense. It's basically just standard villain operations.

Step one: Capture Hero
Step two: make a silly speech
Step three: offer hero to join you
Step four: kill hero in overly elaborate and easily escapable death trap.
Step five: escape in silly looking space vehicle with your cat, mister Bigglesworth.

ok, but your getting the order of events confused. the clone army did stop the jedi massacre as soon as they got there. they fought, were overwhelmed, then rescued. you say the jedi massacre could have been prevented by the clone army. well, it was.

Yeah they did, when there were like three and a half Jedi surviving. Clearly the Jedi are not master tacticians. I mean they go into a battle for no apparent reason ahead of all their troops against insane odds and they completely forget about the enemy's leadership which is at easy killing range. Why couldn't the Jedi and the clone army have all gone in at once and owned Dooku and his friends right there?

they could have sent an assassin to a planet whos massive defences protected Dooku, the man who was about to start a civil war?! one guy could have done that? righty-o.

The planets defenses protected Dooku? They allowed like a hundred well armed Jedi warriors infiltrate a stadium where he was sitting out in the open. It's a wonder some crazy jack ass with a sniper rifle didn't just take him out. I think the only security the arena had was a guy at the gates who asked the entrants if they were Jedi come to stop Dooku or not and when everyone answered no they were allowed in. And how the hell did a shuttle full of one hundred Jedi from Corruscant land on the planet anyhow?

OMG. they were manufacturing thousands of droids under geonosis. isnt it logical to assume that these droids would have to be moved from there to the surface of the planet? dont they need some way of doing that? isnt it possible that they had these exits all over the place, and that one of these would be beneath that arena? and that Dooku, being a bit clever, decided to prepare for every eventuality and have the droids on standby in case things went wrong and the jedi turned up? (which Dooku probably suspected they would since that Geonosian saw Obi Wan making a transmission)

If there had been robotic guards at the arena that would have been acceptible but having an insane number of droids come out from under the arena in the blink of an eye was nonsense.

the thousands of battle droids flowing out of the gates on all sides and generally having a lot of firepower made that a bit difficult.

They were in the stands. The stands were all around Dooku. They could have just used the light side to cloud his judgement and all massed around him and his twenty guards (and that's optimistic) Then they beat the crap out of them and make them call off the war and everyone's happy.

except for all the geonosian warriors and the thousand battle droids i just mentioned. and blasters?? How do you deflect blaster shots with a blaster? run through the arena? to where? they were about to be killed when the jedi turned up.

He's a cunning warrior. I'm sure Anakin could have figured something out.

isnt it possible that some jedi/sith are stronger than others? or have fighting techniques that are more/less effective against some jedi/sith than others? or that every jedi/sith is unique and individual? Obi beat Maul because he surprised him. Maul was stronger than both Jedi combined. Dooku beat Anakin and Obi Wan because he was stronger than him. Yoda was going to win because he was stronger than Dooku. whats the problem here? the sith are intelligent and strong, thats why they win.

Vader is the chosen one, the most powerful guy in the galaxy if you go by midichlorians. Obi Wan goes one on one with him and holds his own. Luke does the same. It took two sith lords working together to beat Luke in RoTJ. I just think it might have been more of a credit to the Jedi if they had been capable of fighting a sith or two at once, rather than fighting two against one and still getting ass whacked. All I'm saying is that the Jedi of the OT were wise, powerful, mysterious and conflicted whereas the Jedi in the OT had no planning skills, were weak, not terribly interesting, smart assed "the cabinet is devoid of food. Empty it can never be" and often just plain annoying.

[Just your average movie goer]

I would like to commend you on a wonderful post, J M.

So than why have him tempt Obi Wan at all if everyone knows he's an evil liar. Vader trying to get Luke to join him is sensible because Luke really could do it. Dooku trying to get Obi Wan to join him makes no sense. It's basically just standard villain operations.

Step one: Capture Hero
Step two: make a silly speech
Step three: offer hero to join you
Step four: kill hero in overly elaborate and easily escapable death trap.
Step five: escape in silly looking space vehicle with your cat, mister Bigglesworth.

This is especially true (and very well put, might I add ). When I saw this, the only thing I could think of was that Lucas was ripping off The Empire Strikes Back.

The difference is that in that movie, joining Vader seemed like a real temptation for the hero. Vader was serious about working together father-and-son and destroying the Emperor. He could have ended the destructive conflict. But Luke realised that if he took this quick and easy path, it would destroy him as a person.

However, with Dookoo asking Obi Wan to join him, we don't even know what's on offer. Not surprisingly, Obi Wan just tells him where to go.

QUOTE 
they could have sent an assassin to a planet whos massive defences protected Dooku, the man who was about to start a civil war?! one guy could have done that? righty-o.



The planets defenses protected Dooku? They allowed like a hundred well armed Jedi warriors infiltrate a stadium where he was sitting out in the open. It's a wonder some crazy jack ass with a sniper rifle didn't just take him out. I think the only security the arena had was a guy at the gates who asked the entrants if they were Jedi come to stop Dooku or not and when everyone answered no they were allowed in. And how the hell did a shuttle full of one hundred Jedi from Corruscant land on the planet anyhow?

I am glad you refuted that point, J M. Jariten, that was a really dumb comment. Dookoo is not all-powerful. Any body capable of flying a ship or using a blaster could have taken him out. Not to mention the fact that a Republic cruiser could have just bombed the whole Geonosis base of operations.

Everyone else seemed to land there without trouble. J M had it so right...

"Are you planning to kill our leader and wipe out our facility during your stay?"

"No."

"Okay then. Have a pleasant stay."

It dosn't matter how much power Palpatine has. There's no way he should have been able to get the trade federation acquitted of horrible galactic genocide. Then again maybe they let them go because they killed a lot of Gungans.

Ah, yes! That's why... in fact, once this was revealed, Nute Gunray received a medal.

[jariten]

ok so lets go through it again.

heres what happened.

they receive a dodgy transmission from Obi Wan, which he didnt have time to complete becasue he was being attacked. from that though, they gather that something bad is happening on Geonosis, and that Dooku is planning to start a civil war, as in immediatly. so after hearing that information, you really think it would be the best move for the Jedi to send one assassin to go and take dooku out? and yes, Dooku was massivly defended, be only came out onto that balcony to oversee the deaths of Obi etc., and taking that that would be the only opportunity for an assassin to kill Dooku, how were the jedi meant to know he would do that? sit on courascant and hope for the best, thinking "well theres hardly any chance for success, but lets just sit back and wait for the galaxy to be plunged into a mssive war anyway". they acted quickly and decicivly based on all the intelligence they could gather.

Notice that I wrote stop Dooku, not kill him. even if this assassin scheme wouldve worked (and it wouldnt), what would killing Dooku have done? Poggle seemed to be the one in charge of military operations anyway. If they had taken him out, the army would still be there, and the war would still happen.

as for bombing the ground? first, the wouldve taken out a powerful, important Jedi, an equally important senator, and probably most importantly the bloody chosen one who, as facts stand, was the only one who could bring "the force back into balance". not to mention god knows what other information would be stored down there, plus they didnt know exactly what was going on, plus how could they hope to wipe out all the droid factories from space considering they were all underground, plus Dooku hadnt done anything at that point so presumably thats murder etc. etc.

as for the droids coming out thing. again, i state- Dooku probably knew they were coming, there was a droid factory under geonosis with exits to the surface, Dooku had them prepared.

However, with Dookoo asking Obi Wan to join him, we don't even know what's on offer

"join me, and we can destroy the sith!"

Everyone else seemed to land there without trouble

considering we didnt even see them land, how can you assume that??

I mean they go into a battle for no apparent reason ahead of all their troops against insane odds and they completely forget about the enemy's leadership which is at easy killing range. Why couldn't the Jedi and the clone army have all gone in at once and owned Dooku and his friends right there?

Yoda and the others had no idea what the news was with the clone army. notice he said he would go to Kamino to "investigate" the clone army, thats all. the jedi knew there was no time to lose if they wanted to prevent the war. they did what they had to do. they certainly had no time to sit about and wait for Yoda to go to Kamino, figure out what was happening there (if anything), wait for him to come back, thenassess the situation. in fact, if they would have done that, Padme, Obi, and the chosen one would have been dead, Dooku wouldve escaped with ease, the war wouldve started, and Palpatine would never have been stopped...

[Despondent]

I just carefully posted about Anikan's mom, not mentioning her name. Why? because of a disrespect for an eastern Deity? No, because in English it sounds stupid.

Poggle seemed to be the one in charge of military operations anyway. If they had taken him out, the army would still be there...

I don't know. "Shmi Skywalker" doesn't sound so bad.

[jariten]

and when you get it wet, the card gets all frayed at the edges.

[Just your average movie goer]

Jariten, the Jedi didn't know that Obi Wan, Anakin and Amidala were in the arena. And if they did, I'm not sure about Yoda's commanding skills then - he got a shitload of other Jedi killed to save three people.

As for any difficulties in bombing Geonosis, a republic cruiser could do it from orbit.

As for the war about to start, one Count, some termites and the already-proven-to-be-incompetent Trade Federation hardly constitutes a threat....

just as someone trying to kill an incompetent senator from a useless world hardly consitutes a threat, nor does a trade blockade of said useless world.

Give me an Imperialistic group or a bunch of Anarchists trying to take over the galaxy, with clone soldiers. THAT would consitute a threat.

And as for your arguments... stale bread, mate. Give it up and stop flogging that dead horse for crying out loud!

[jariten]

this could go on forever, ive got a slew of things to counter your stuff with. however, at the risk of things turning nasty again, im taking a break from the star wars board for a bit. i might check out the other boards, then come back later.

got an idea- why doesnt someone think up a topic about the OT? then we can probably all agree on how good it is, then we can all join hands and skip about in a big circle.




ok forget that. mixing fantasy with reality again.

[jariten]

ah what the hey. on we go.

Jariten, the Jedi didn't know that Obi Wan, Anakin and Amidala were in the arena. And if they did, I'm not sure about Yoda's commanding skills then - he got a shitload of other Jedi killed to save three people.

they did know that Obi was on Geonosis, and like I said, they didnt go there only to rescue him (although i`m sure that was part of it), they went to stop a war.

As for the war about to start, one Count

"thousands of systems have declared their intention to leave the Republic. This seperatist movement, under the leadership of the mysterious Count Dooku..."

clearly, this is a guy of some importance and power, to be at the head of something so massive. add to that the fact that hes an ex-jedi, with intentions to rebel against the Republic, with a huge droid army that the Jedi knows he has, and he starts to sound like a serious, serious threat, and one that needs to be stopped now.

some termites

who designed and built not only a massive droid foundary, thousands of battle droids, but who also designed what will become the death star. they sound extremelly intelligent and extremelly dangerous to me.

and the already-proven-to-be-incompetent Trade Federation

the Federation were just puppets in the first film. and in AotC, they are just part of a group that has signed up with Dooku`s movement. theres all the other organisations that were lined up around that table.

hardly constitutes a threat....

well, clearly it does, considering what I just said and the line from Dooku

"when their battle droids are combined with yours we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Republic will be overwhelmed. They will agree to any demands we make"

hense the speed at which the Jedi launced their attempt to stop him.

just as someone trying to kill an incompetent senator from a useless world hardly consitutes a threat

not exactly sure what youre reffering to here, but if you mean why were they trying to kill Amidala, its because she was a strong voice in the anti-military creation act, something Palpatine obviously didnt want. thats why he had Tyrannous have Jango have Zam try to take her out, so it couldnt be traced back to him.

nor does a trade blockade of said useless world

cant be bothered to go through Palpatines plan again, except that the blockade was vital in getting Palpatine elected, and what started the wheels turning, and got him on the path towards Emperor-dom.

[Just your average movie goer]

Fair enough - but couldn't all of the above threats be replaced with an Imperialist or Anarchist movement, trying to take over the galaxy with clone soldiers?

It'd be a lot more simple and we could then start Episode I with the Clone Wars already in motion.

Then we could do other things such as fleshing out Anakin's character development and his fall to the dark side, showing the galaxy at war* etc...

* One of the biggest problems with Episode I and II is that we are looking at a galaxy at peace for the most part. Lucas forgot a very important detail with this - the title of these movies is called STAR WARS, not STAR POLITICAL INTRIGUE.

[J m HofMarN]

The Jedi are still idiots for having rushed in like they did. They reasonably could have waited for maybe ten minutes for Yoda to arrive with the army of death. Instead they just rushed head on into battle with unknown odds as well as forgetting to assail the seperatist leaders.

thats why he had Tyrannous have Jango have Zam try to take her out, so it couldnt be traced back to him

Correction: That's why he had tyannous have jango have zam have a droid have a worm try to kill her.

That whole thing was a needlessly silly and complicated disaster, which could be said for much of the plot of the series. Lucas tried to compensate for the childishness of his films by putting in complicated pltos to try to interest adults. The problem is there are no adults who can grasp the intricacies of these plots, because they don't make a bit of sense.

[jariten]

The Jedi are still idiots for having rushed in like they did. They reasonably could have waited for maybe ten minutes for Yoda to arrive with the army of death. Instead they just rushed head on into battle with unknown odds as well as forgetting to assail the seperatist leaders.

i think i addressed this a couple of pages back, but the Jedi didnt know what was up with the clone army. Yoda said hed "investigate for himself" and try to assertain what was going on. They certainly couldnt wait for him to go all the way to Kamino, find out, then come back (possibly with nothing) then go to Geonosis. In fact, as I already said, if they had done that, Padme, Obi and Ani would　have died and Dooku wouldve escaped. they acted quickly and decisively, which is exactly what the situation warranted. i dont think they so much forgot to attack the leaders, as much as were unable too (except for that guy who jango shot to bits)

[J m HofMarN]

"Let's infiltrate the arena and fight the bad guys" Does not equal a battle plan. Jedi are supposed to be clever and knowledgable. The rescue in ATOTC makes ROTJs rescue look like a Navy SEALS operation.

And how did the Jedi get the ships and artillery I mean a clone army would be suspicious but a fully equipped navy and army with artillery and aerial support? Why did noone sense something odd about this? And another good point that was raised. If the Jedi can't even stand up to a droid army why hasn't the republic already been conquered? Are we to believe that for a thousand years the republic has been guarded by a hundred meat-bags with glowing rods and their cunning genereal, Cptn Noplan?