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Why I like the prequels (part one- TPM)

#106 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 06:29 AM

Now, I'm responding more to Jariten's original post here.

I recently began on the systematic dissection of the PT, and intend to find all the weaknesses in it, so that I can fix them somehow, sometime.
Perhaps I need a foil, someone to make sure I don't get off track - because we've all seen what happens when one person has no one to question their work.

You say the direction?

Its interesting - and it is obvious that there was ambition and potential - but the delivery fell flat on its face. The overall one-page plan looks good - but when the exile who leads the Jedi to his people is Jar Jar Binks and the Gungans, when the damsel-in-distress/leader-under-duress is a 14-year old girl who hides behind a porcelain doll for protection. when the gifted youth of immaculate conception is Jake Lloyd, when the governments response to the threat is to sleep on it and hope they've thought of something better, when the knight of darkness is Darth Maul, when the mysterious Darth Sidious has Palpatine written on the back of his cloak for the benefit of the slower members of the audience and when a Senator, not even a particularly important one, can knock the Supreme Chancellor off his pedestal and ascend to his position with such ease - I am sorry Jariten, but you'll have to explain that one to me.

You say palpatine?

Cleverly done? Stolen from a tenth-grade history book on Hitler, I say.
Even the title "Chancellor" was kept. And Palpatine gets there... how. We see only every other step. How did Palpatine convince the Senate that he was the best candidate for Belorum's sucessor? How did Palpatine control not just the senate but the judiciary? What happened to his enemies?

And as for best recent screen villain - if Palpatine of TPM and AOTC thinks he can hold a candle to Christopher Lee's Saruman from Fellowship of the Rings then he's got another thing coming.

You say Qui-Gon Jinn?

I agree. He has soul, on-screen presence, he is likeable, he has humour (I particularly love that he made Jar-Jar Binks suffer, if only a little) but both him and his death were unnecessary. And he is only the shadow of Alec Guiness and the original Obi-Wan Kenobi - if George Lucas thought he could have the character who we grow to love, who guides the hero through his first steps in the force, and dies with honour in battle then he only had the skeleton. Qui-Gon Jinn remains the sole good point of TPM for me - but he is insufficient, and considerably hampered by the writing for his companions - particularly George Lucas's abuse of Alec Guinness by using Obi-Wan to recapture the Luke Skywalker character of the original trilogy and by Jar-Jar Binks.

The Dinner scene?

Your points interested me, and I'll admit they did improve the scene for me. Still - It didn't strike me that well.

But, I'd like you to consider the potential for the prequels, If they had been done completely differently.

Some food for thought:

Palpatine wields the force. Only those with the force can inspire loyalty in others of their ilk, and Palpatine has at least three such loyalists - the silent, and ultimately useless Darth Maul - Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus, who despite George Lucas's hamfisted writing, something of Christopher Lee's ability does shine through - and Darth Vader. But WHO TRAINED PALPATINE IN THE WAYS OF THE FORCE?

Not a Jedi, or he would never have had either the power to establish the empire or the vision to do so.

This leaves the Sith.

If he was trained by the Sith - then there would have been a Dark Lord of the Sith - someone of power who was pulling all the strings.

What if Palpatine was the Sith Lord's plant in the Republic, and the agent through which his plans came to fruition - and when the Sith Lord himself was defeated, his student continued in his work, but for himself and not the Sith.

Another thing,

Darth Vader, the Emperor's pet Dark Jedi, is not powerful enough to defeat the Jedi. The Dark Knights of the Sith are required. Bring on the Dark Knights.

What if Anakin Skywalker was a man grown, a starfighter pilot in the republican navy at a time of crisis when an anarchist movement puppeteered by the Sith lord using clones to swell the ranks of their army, and his skill and potential for growth as a Jedi was noticed by the Jedi Knight, General Kenobi, and taken for training.

What if Anakin, a resident of Tatooine, and his brother or close friend Owen
also of Tatooine met Obi-Wan when he came to Tatooine specifically for Anakin - explaining "join old Obi-Wan on some damnfool idealistic crusade"

What if Obi-Wan's Master and mentor, Yoda, objected to the training of Anakin because the man was too set in his ways, too already formed to be properly trained, but Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train him in spite of his mentors warning.

What if Anakin, wih all his power but without the temperance of Jedi training, was vulnerable to the wiles of the Sith and particularly of Palpatine, who led his steps in darkness.

What if, in a skirmish with the Sith, Anakin, lashes out in anger, kills a Sith Knight, and still blinded by rage, turns on Obi-Wan, who in self-defense deals the crippling injury to him.

What if Anakin was taken by the Republic for care, and Palpatine waited upon him, instructing him in the ways of the dark side as the machine prostheses that transform him to Darth Vader are administered.

What if the Sith Knights begin the purge of the Jedi, but are halted when Yoda goes and defeats the Dark Lord of the Sith in an all-out force battle.

What if, after the Sith had exterminated the Jedi, and become severely depleted themselves, Palpatine placed Vader at the head of his loyal republican army and wiped out the Sith.

Thusly, the Jedi are gone, and by stopping the Sith and their clone armies, Palpatine is hailed as leader of the republic, and granted such support that he remakes the empire in his image - creating the Empire and Imperial Senate out of the ashes of republic. His loyal cronies he grants positions of power, and he replaces the true republican statesman and soldiers with his own men, men like Grand Moff Tarkin.

Think about it.
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#107 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 01:17 PM

I'd totally forgotten that I started this! I think it was my second ever post or something.

You raise some really good points, and I want to respond to them, but I dont have the time to do it just yet, probably tomorrow? good post though.
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#108 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 05:18 PM

QUOTE
You say the direction?


yeah, heres what I like about it.

I think TPM is a really ambitious film, and like a lot of films which dont play by the book, Lucas sometimes overreaches himself.

I love the sheer density and intricate nature of the plotting, where Lucas is able to successfully stick together several unrelated plot strands into one tight, coherant whole. Breaking it down a bit more then, the two main componants of TPM are Palpatines rise to power and the discovery and rescue of Anakin. Lucas has created a 'two pronged' (i know that sounds awful but its the best way i can describe it) plot which is designed to incorperate both, and develop both simultanously.

so its because of Palpatines scheming that the Jedi are able to come into contact with Anakin in the first place, and as his story is going on, Palpatines story fades into the background somewhat (but the effects of his actions are still brought into the story occasionally- through the transmission from Sio Bibble and the intervention of Darth Maul for example), but then comes back into the fore when they are on Courascant, which is also of course when Lucas continues Anakins development.

Its basically his control over all the stories hes created for the film that I like.

QUOTE
but when the exile who leads the Jedi to his people is Jar Jar Binks and the Gungans,


what dont you like about this bit? although the final Gungan/droid battle is fairly awful, I do like the way he constantly pitches the coldness of the military vs. more primitive, 'natural' opponents. also interesting that the gungans struggle in 1 but the ewoks sin in 6.

QUOTE
when the damsel-in-distress/leader-under-duress is a 14-year old girl who hides behind a porcelain doll for protection


do you mean the decoy? whats wrong with that? it fooled the Federation didnt it?

QUOTE
the gifted youth of immaculate conception is Jake Lloyd,


well, not sure what that fact has got to do with the direction, but ok

QUOTE
when the governments response to the threat is to sleep on it and hope they've thought of something better


not sure what you mean by this.

QUOTE
when the mysterious Darth Sidious has Palpatine written on the back of his cloak for the benefit of the slower members of the audience


actually, thinking about it, this was something else i really liked about it. I like the way it wasnt directly spelled out for you, but you had to kind of piece the clues together, then you got the big reveal at the end during the funeral scene. its good to go back and pick through all the scenes in the film. i thought it was subtly and cleverly done.

QUOTE
and when a Senator, not even a particularly important one, can knock the Supreme Chancellor off his pedestal and ascend to his position with such ease


the senate scenes did have a slightly rushed feel to them, but for the sake of pacing i can understand it. I actually assumed that palpatine was an important senator. Palps was confidant enough of a nomination if he manipulated Padme into the vote of no confidance thing after all. the senate was in a mess and he took advantage of it.

QUOTE
Cleverly done? Stolen from a tenth-grade history book on Hitler, I say.
Even the title "Chancellor" was kept. And Palpatine gets there... how. We see only every other step. How did Palpatine convince the Senate that he was the best candidate for Belorum's sucessor? How did Palpatine control not just the senate but the judiciary? What happened to his enemies?


yes of course youre right about the Hitler comparison, but I see no problem in using historical referance points in films. and as to Palpatine getting into power- were just shown what is necessary, all the other stuff is superflous.

QUOTE
but both him and his death were unnecessary.


I think Lucas needed a foil to the Jedi Council, and Qui Gon was it- a guy who breaks the rules if he thinks what hes doing is right. once Lucas decided to make Anakin a kid, it was the obvious choice to make Qui Gon. Obi and Anakin struggle in their relationship, and one of the reasons for this was that Anakin was 'forced' upon him in a way. what might have happened if Qui had survived? etc.

I liked some of your ideas too. and although i like TPM, its the weakest of the lot. its just got so many good ideas and an interesting approach. the frustrating thing for me is I wonder what the film might have been with a couple more rewrites.
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#109 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 12:51 PM

I'm not sure you guys are talking about Lucas as a Director. You seem to be talking about elements of the story, and occasionally the pacing of the plot, which is screenplay again with a little editing thrown in.

Lucas as Director is sub-standard: he has a good understanding of when to steal a shot composition from another film, and he knows more or less how to compose a frame and when and how to move a camera. So all good there. However, he has no idea how to motivate actors.

Watching TPM was as interesting as reading the screenplay. I'm sure Lucas got several of those scenes in a single take, with no time spent on rehearsal. The motivations of the characters, after all, is not interesting to him. The actors anfd their interactions are just lead-ins to the action scenes.

Where is Lucas on the Kevin Smith scae of bad directors? Well, he knows all about shot composition and editing, unlike Mr Smith. However, he still gives line readings and wraps scenes in single takes, just like KS. And he does not discuss the dialogue with his actors, which is something at least KS is willing to do from time to time.

So I say its a tie.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#110 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 01:24 PM

well i started to talk about the direction (crosscutting) but Mnesymone raised a bunch of other stuff so what was i supposed to do but respond.

lucas has never been an actors director, you can watch the 2-D turns he got out of hammil etc in the original for evidence of that.
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#111 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 08:09 PM

QUOTE
"but then comes back into the fore when they are on Courascant, which is also of course when Lucas continues Anakins development."


Anakin has no development at all in any of these movies. As for Sidious/Palps having any control whatsoever I don't think it looks like it at all. Most of the people I talk to about the movies who aren't starwars afficianados have no knowledge that palpatine=sidious. This is not because they're dull but because Lucas relies on evil looks and stupid assumptions and referencing things that never happened as the evidence that Palpatine is evil. There's no logical way to conclude that Palpatine is Sidious.

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#112 User is offline   Garth Vader Icon

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 05:22 PM

QUOTE (Jordan @ Aug 30 2004, 11:45 AM)
But you know what's going to happen in ROTS. To date Lucas has failed to give us one single plot twist.

what about the queen and the decoy in the phantom mess? or was that so miniscule in its importance and surprise factor that no one really cared or took notice?
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#113 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 06:13 PM

Garth- That was one of the most hideously unecessary scenes of all time put in just for shock value. "OOOOOOOH look a fucking explosion, I bet I'll be seeing a LOT of those in the next two hours, well at least the twat is dead... Oh no wait suddenly she's ok... dammit"

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#114 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 06:18 PM

QUOTE
This is not because they're dull but because Lucas relies on evil looks and stupid assumptions and referencing things that never happened as the evidence that Palpatine is evil. There's no logical way to conclude that Palpatine is Sidious.


honestly JM, Lucas gives us so many clues that, regardless of the subtley of a few of them, anyone should be able to figure it out. this was one of my favourite things about TPM- Lucas refused to give it to us on a plate, and left us to actually think a bit and figure it out.

QUOTE
But you know what's going to happen in ROTS. To date Lucas has failed to give us one single plot twist.


Anakins fall to the darkside has its basis in love. I personally didnt see that one coming
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#115 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 06:54 PM

Lucas just gives us evil grins and offscreen plot. There's never any actual evidence that one could tie together. For instance, we can watch TPM and see Palpatine's look at the end and say "evil" but there's no way of coming to that conclusion through evidence.

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#116 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 12:03 PM

the whole point of a series of films is that you have to watch them all for it all to come together. even those of us who didnt get who Palpatine was can go back through it after seeing Sith (which is presumably where Palps will reveal his true colours) and the films will take on an extra dimension.

honestly though, even the non SW fans I spoke to, who didnt know that he was the Emperor in the originals, figured it out.
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#117 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 12:37 PM

Then maybe it's a bit too obvious. I'd like for it to have been a proper mystery where the audience can figure it out using logic and thought rather than just seeing Palpy grin all evil like. By the way man you should check out my novel in the screening room forums. It's the only major production that dosn't involve making fun of you... yet lol j/k

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#118 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 12:53 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ Nov 19 2004, 12:03 PM)
the whole point of a series of films is that you have to watch them all for it all to come together. even those of us who didnt get who Palpatine was can go back through it after seeing Sith (which is presumably where Palps will reveal his true colours) and the films will take on an extra dimension.

honestly though, even the non SW fans I spoke to, who didnt know that he was the Emperor in the originals, figured it out.


Jariten

I find it interesting jariten, that you chose Darth Tight-ass/Lord Doo-doo/Count Nefarious/Baron Mordor/Dr. Doom or whoever the hell Christopher Lee's character is yell.gif .... as your avatar.

That character is so representative of the problems with the Prequel films.

I'd explain but I'll let you think on that point for a minute.
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#119 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 02:31 PM

no go on say it now, i'm desperate to hear

QUOTE
It's the only major production that dosn't involve making fun of you... yet lol j/k


i wish you would though, it gives such an enormous sense of well being

This post has been edited by jariten: 19 November 2004 - 02:41 PM

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#120 User is offline   Moyale Icon

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 11:18 AM

It seems to me that the problem for many people about the prequels is that they have all read too much of the extended universe and too many fan magazines. If you have a preconceived notion about what they prequel story was supposed to be - yes the obvious one where anakin is 18, a jedi in the space navy, etc. etc - and you knew that palpatine was the emperor and padme was amidala and you knew that Darth Maul was supposed to be the new bad ass villain, then I guess you could be disapointed. Not enough Darth Maul, too much Qui Gonn, and the mysteries obvious. Whose fault is that?

I am not a prequel lover, but Phantom Menace isn't too much stupider than Return of the Jedi. There is only one Jar Jar, there are many Ewoks, Palpatine is not more cartoonish than the Mr. Burns the Emperor, Darth Maul is more interesting than any muppets in Jabba's palace, Qui Gonn and Obi Wan swimming in fake water is no more ridiculous than that dumb scene where Artoo and Threepio fall off the sail barge and manage to bury themselves six feet into the sand head first, and then are pulled out by their feet in a scene where it is obvious that no sand exists.

I saw the original trilogy, kind of liked most of it, forgot about it, and and when Phantom menace showed up, went to see it. Sure it was kind of childish, but I had seen Jedi, and the newest Indianna Jones movie, and it wasn't as stupid as either of those movies. Why the hatred. If anything it should be merely a bored dismissal - like maybe I should have gone into theater 12 instead and seen that one... oh well.
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