[Just your average movie goer]

Sir Alec, nearly stole the show in Star Wars A New Hope. He looked spry, confident, and fit in perfectly with the cast and the surroundings.

Whoa, whoa, Mike... it's going to completely throw everything into chaos if you start saying things I agree with.

[Madam Corvax]

Liam Neeson's acting in TPM, was some of the most wooden acting I have ever seen in Star Wars. Emotionless.
Neeson almost looks bored in the role.

I beg to differ here, Mike. He did not look almost bored. He looked totally and utterly bored, IMHO.

[Vwing]

No Mike, Bail Organa did not have more screen time than Palps. You see, that would've been at least a decent thing to do, since right now, WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO ORGANA IS! He wasn't in Ep 1, he says 1 line in Episode 2 and then looks down in the last scene showing that he's not happy with Palps. Hell, if it wasn't for the credits we wouldn't know his name. This is the thing with the prequels. All of these characters who we ALL thought would be major players, ie Owen Lars, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, are all getting NO SCREEN TIME and NO DEVELOPMENT. Mothma's not even in it yet! She, like Organa, will be in Episode III, but that's not enough for characters who should've been of much more importance. And Lars is just there so fans of the originals can say "OMG it's Owen Lars as a young man! AHHH!" Obi-Wan said to Luke in Episode IV that Owen didn't share anakin's ideals. WHAT? Owen has 2 lines, that's not enough to say what you're goddamn ideals are! He doesn't even KNOW Anakin!

And Civ, it's funny you mention the battles, I was thinking the exact same thing. The OT had 1 battle, then 2 battles, and then 3 battles, and they all worked very well, the 2 and 3 battles were cut very well. And then TPM has 4 (pointless) battles, with only one that was actually decent, the lightsaber duel, but that whenever they got into the duel they would cut away to show Amidala or Anakin acting like a stupid little shit in a spaceship or the Gungans throwing beach balls at the droids and Jar-Jar accidentally saving the day (Notice that in this movie, there were not only 1, but 2 accidental victories, as we just had to have Jar-Jar use his clumsiness to save the Gungans). I was convinced AOTC would have 5, probably a space battle, ground battle, lightsaber duel, chase scene, and water battle, but I was wrong. I actually didn't think the Geonosis battle was executed horribly in and of itself, but in the context of the film and how it came about it was kind of stupid. I wonder what Epsiode III will have, whether Lucas will cut up the Anakin-Obi-Wan duel or if he'll just let it run (which I think would be better).

[Mike Mac from NYU]

"QUOTE (Mike Mac from NYU @ Aug 25 2004, 09:29 AM)
Liam Neeson's acting in TPM, was some of the most wooden acting I have ever seen in Star Wars. Emotionless.
Neeson almost looks bored in the role.



I beg to differ here, Mike. He did not look almost bored. He looked totally and utterly bored, IMHO. "

Your right, madam!

A shame. Neeson was so good in Rob Roy & Schindler's list.

Though, I am probably sure he doesn't get too board when he sees the royalty checks!!!

[Just your average movie goer]

Vwing, you are absolutely right about these important characters getting no screen-time. I watched Episode II myself (twice actually ) and I don't have a clue who Bail Organa was. The name wasn't mentioned anywhere that I can remember.

You'd think that seeing how "years ago [General Kenobi] served [Leia's] father in the Clone Wars", Lucas might have paid a little more attention to Bail Organa's onscreen development.

[Commoner]

Dittoes! Bravo! I concur!! You are all so absolutely right! I really wish I could contribute something brilliant to expound on the point....

[jariten]

again, i state-

TPM is an ambitious movie. it has two major stories- in one, a corrupt senator takes his first steps towards supreme evildom, and in the second (for now, unrelated) story has a young boy on his first steps towards jedi hood and beyond.

that right there is more than enough for most moviemakers to handle, let alone craft into anything tight and coherant.

Lucas creates a narrative that manages to encompass and develop both of those stories at once. and its brilliant. the senator, who also happens to be a sith bad guy, manipulates everyone and comes out victorious at the end. the beauty of this duality of palp/sid is that its never actually stated. a summer blockbuster that actually requires the audience to think? Lucas deserves credit for that at least. although they are originally two seperate stories, Lucas slowly merges them together, and they begin to cross over into each other.

eg without the blockade (organised by palpatine) the jedi would never have met anakin, who never wouldve met palpatine, and...you know the rest.

as for Qui being dull/Neeson being bored. well...actually read my first post again. why was he in the saga at all? Lucas wanted to (rightly) introduce anakin as a pre jedi and so Obi wan needed a master to stay consistant with this theme of duality that runs throughout the whole saga. related to the jedi its like this- a nice, helping, symbiotic relationship for the jedi and a destructive one for the sith.

and i love the dinner scene because it feels like the most human (and its pretty low key) scene in the whole film. its where we find out about anakin (whos a good actor here at least), his relationship with his mother, and it reminded me of that scene near the start of ANH.　

[Helena]

Lucas creates a narrative that manages to encompass and develop both of those stories at once. and its brilliant. the senator, who also happens to be a sith bad guy, manipulates everyone and comes out victorious at the end. the beauty of this duality of palp/sid is that its never actually stated. a summer blockbuster that actually requires the audience to think? Lucas deserves credit for that at least. although they are originally two seperate stories, Lucas slowly merges them together, and they begin to cross over into each other.

Lucas doesn't need to state that Palpatine is because everyone already knows it! And even if by some miracle there are people who don't, he makes it completely obvious with the infamous 'Sidious's chin' cut at the end of TPM. It's not exactly subtle.

as for Qui being dull/Neeson being bored. well...actually read my first post again. why was he in the saga at all? Lucas wanted to (rightly) introduce anakin as a pre jedi and so Obi wan needed a master to stay consistant with this theme of duality that runs throughout the whole saga. related to the jedi its like this- a nice, helping, symbiotic relationship for the jedi and a destructive one for the sith

Regardless of whether or not Qui-Gon is a good character, he should not have been there in the first place. Yoda was supposed to be Obi-Wan's master. It's right there in ESB: 'There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.' Think how strange that line is going to sound to people who watch the Prequels first!

[Just your average movie goer]

I just wonder... can you explain why all of this so-called "brillance" of the prequels is lost on everyone here?

I saw Episodes I and II and all I can think about them is that they were two shitty, juvenile and uninspiring pieces of trash.

Is this because my expectations were too high? No. I think it's perfectly reasonable to demand that movies that were originally planned twenty years ago oughta have something to show for the long delay.

Is it because they're made for children? No. There are many kids films out there that I enjoy.

Is it because it was too intelligent?

a summer blockbuster that actually requires the audience to think?

Har dee har har har!

No, it was not too intelligent. It was a very poorly crafted film. Lucas seemed to have tried to make it really intelligent by attempting to use intrigue and mystery... but this was just time wasting rubbish. We all knew that Palpatine was Sideous. We all knew that rubbish about Amidala and her decoy. And for Lucas to pretend that this is actually intriguing is to insult the intelligence of everyone in the audience. So again, my answer is NO. It was not too intelligent.

The only "thinking" I did when I was watching the movie was just wondering how in the hell my favourite childhood movies had come to this.

TPM is an ambitious movie. it has two major stories- in one, a corrupt senator takes his first steps towards supreme evildom, and in the second (for now, unrelated) story has a young boy on his first steps towards jedi hood and beyond.

that right there is more than enough for most moviemakers to handle, let alone craft into anything tight and coherant.

This strikes me as being a very simple task, actually. And I believe Lucas still failed to pull it off.

eg without the blockade (organised by palpatine) the jedi would never have met anakin, who never wouldve met palpatine, and...you know the rest.

This is one thing that really annoys me about prequel gusher arguments. One could easily be forgiven for assuming that you guys think no other stories are possible.

Most members on this board (although you will most likely disagree) could think up far better stories, while drunk and standing on their heads in a shower, with Shiny Happy People playing on the radio in the background.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 26 August 2004 - 07:35 AM

[Helena]

I just wonder... can you explain why all of this so-called "brillance" of the prequels is lost on everyone here?

I saw Episodes I and II and all I can think about them is that they were two shitty, juvenile and uninspiring pieces of trash.

Exactly. Constantly repeating that the prequels are 'brilliant' is not going to convince anyone here that they are, in fact, brilliant. No offence jariten, you've tried incredibly hard, but you still haven't come up with a single argument that I actually find convincing.

[Sagacity]

This is one thing that really annoys me about prequel gusher arguments. One could easily be forgiven for assuming that you guys think no other stories are possible.

This might not come across as diplomatic, but I say people who don't know what goes into the creative process and treat it like a math problem or a jigsaw puzzle will always think there's only one way to do things. There are any number of ways the story could have been told, and any number of stories to be told. It did not have to happen this way. The problem is, once it's told to an audience it's set in stone, so it's easy to believe it could not have happened any other way. If Lucas is going to treat SW as something that can be changed, in which events did not happen even the way he says it does, why can't we?

This post has been edited by Sagacity: 26 August 2004 - 09:22 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Thank you, Sagacity.

And I am much happier with the backstory I already had in mind than the prequels.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 26 August 2004 - 10:50 AM

[jariten]

what do you want me to say? its just as likely that i will convince you all that these films are good that you will convince me that theyre bad.

i do recognise that they are flawed, TPM in particular, and all i can do is tell you why i like them.

I didnt know that Palpatine was Sidious before i saw it, it was only through the subtle (and once, yes, not so subtle) clues that Lucas gave us that helped us to figure it out. understanding who Palpatine is is essential to understanding the plot, and Lucas decided to let people figure it out for themselves instead of hitting them over the head with it. in this respect yes, he made the audience think and in this respect its an intelligently crafted film.

of course there are a million different ways TPM could have been, only ive yet to read a better one.

[Helena]

If you go back through the forum, there are several threads where people here have posted their own ideas for the Prequels - most of them considerably better than Lucas's, in my opinion. Not that this is very difficult - there are all sorts of simple changes that could be made to improve Lucas's ideas, without even changing the basic concept. For instance:

Lose Jar Jar Binks and the Gungans. If you must have an irritating comic relief character, that honour can go to C-3P0.

Start with Anakin being 18 as opposed to 9, and a real pilot as opposed to a pod-racer.

Don't have Anakin build C-3P0. Then you wouldn't have to waste time explaining a) how this is even possible and b) why they don't recognise each other later.

Get rid of the Trade Federation and show the galaxy in the midst of a real crisis - civil war, widespread terrorism, that sort of thing.

Lose Naboo altogether. Make Padme queen of Alderaan - which would make sense, given that Leia's supposed to come from there - and make her an actual queen, rather than an elected President who calls herself a Queen for some unfathomable reason.

See how easy it is? And these are just a very, very few of the improvements that could be made.

[Madam Corvax]

This might not come across as diplomatic, but I say people who don't know what goes into the creative process and treat it like a math problem or a jigsaw puzzle will always think there's only one way to do things.

I always thought that stories who stretch over quite a lot of time NEED to be like jigsaw puzzles - thus, when you complete reading or watching such story, there comes the gasp at the end, when all pieces fall together. That is what I call good story telling. Otherwise it is just a collage of images, some things cobbled up together without a plan. A good story teller thinks up all the things from the beginning, so that all fall into place in the end.

That is why for example Harry Potter books are so good, even though they are children's stories. It's all there, there not even a single superfluous paragraph, they all contribute to the development of the story or understanding of what is happening. For example, Hermione is learning about Annimagi, because later on it the story they appear and we need an explanation what it is.

Please do not mistake creativity with sloppiness and carelessness. It does have a lot to do with mathematics and jigsaw puzzles, if you are telling a complex story. It all has to stick together.

And it does not in case of GL.