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Why I like the prequels (part one- TPM)

#16 User is offline   Esco Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:14 PM

hey I just noticed something. We all zealously went into our rants, and along the way it seems we lost our guest. Where did Jariten go?
Stick around man. We need you here. You know, to balance the scales a little.
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#17 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:42 PM

He'll be back (I hope). Who knows what part of the world he's in... may be sleeping, working, attending school.

I look forward to seeing him/her again! smile.gif
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#18 User is offline   Heccubus Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 02:00 PM

When I first saw Episode 1, I thought "Hey, that movie ruled! Well, it did if you completely ignore the originals...I mean...as a standalone..." and then I sort of stopped talking for about a half hour and cried in a corner. Anyway, since I've pretty much washed my hands of Star Wars altogether, I now see the prequels as standard, sub-par science fiction. They don't really have much to distinguish them from other science fiction movies of late, aside from a less action-based storyline and some droids. It's a shame to see Star Wars come to something like this, when the original trilogy did as much to introduce sci fi to the younger audience that it did. People can complain about the bad acting all they want. Luke saying "But I was going in to Tashi station to pick up some power converters!" is still one of the lamest, poorly read lines that I can recall. The difference is that the rest of the original trilogy was so good and original that pathetic dialogue like that can be ignored. The prequels, however, are not quite as groundbreaking. I think I've already ventured into a slew of territory that I know nothing of, however, so I'll just leave now.
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#19 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 03:04 PM

QUOTE (Heccubus @ Aug 19 2004, 08:00 PM)
People can complain about the bad acting all they want.  Luke saying "But I was going in to Tashi station to pick up some power converters!" is still one of the lamest, poorly read lines that I can recall.  The difference is that the rest of the original trilogy was so good and original that pathetic dialogue like that can be ignored.

Yes, well, I agree with you there - Luke sounds like a five-year-old having a tantrum. It's quite an achievement that the dialogue in the Prequels manages to be even worse.
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The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

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Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#20 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 03:40 PM

From the new super special editions:

"But Uncle Owen..."

"You can waste your time with your friends after your chores are done."

Luke scampers off "Yippee!"

Beru: "...he's got too much of his father in him."
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#21 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 04:52 PM

Despondent, I have to say, that was one of the funniest things I've seen in a while. That was great.
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#22 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 07:08 PM

"Who knows what part of the world he's in"

Japan!

"may be sleeping, working, attending school."

er...the first one.

kind of only just got up in fact and i see ive got my work cut out for me here. i'll get around to it soon though. thanks for the responses everyone.
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#23 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 08:44 PM

Jariten... your a brave dude...

no, just kidding... you made some good points. smile.gif

however...
i found the plot to focus on the obvious and unimportant, and lacking in true depth. the coversations in ANH between Luke and Obi wan gives us more information and fed my imagination a million times more than ep1 and 2 together...

Palpatine....
yeah... I dug... McDarmids cool! but that last line was a bit cheesy...

Qui-Gon...
also a nice guy. I think everything his character was, disrupted the potential flow of the overall story and was detrimental to other relationships that should have been cultivated...
on the other hand... he seemed like a really nice guy. like someone you would want to know, and anything wrong with him will not manifest in any hatred for his role personally. he's just a nice guy...

the conversation...
hmmm... i don't know. i could never pay adequate attention to anything but Jar Jars antics... This is the one moment that i can be truly justified in blaming on him. he bent that scene over and raped it!!!

welcom aboard by the way...
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#24 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 11:03 PM

Jariten- Welcome and I look forward very much to dueling with you. If you know any neo conservatives send them on over to the news forum so I can have a bit more fun there.

I kind of see where you got your first point. Yeah, the cuts at least all made sense and flowed to an extent and didn't lose anyone. However its the actual plot and believability and quality I'm angry about. It's not really an in-your-face bad movie.

Palpatine was insane. Maybe his acting was ok but the whole plot around him was vastly over-complicated and his origins were never really made clear in the first place. He raised three seperate armies just to gain control of the republic. His minions were not at all interesting or threatening, and in the case of Dooku they were just straight up confusing. And what exactly is it that Palpatine does wrong to make him a villain? So far he's just been talking to some slimy aliens and chatting with lame sub-villains. And let's not forget the force clouding.

I did indeed like Qui Gon but as has been said there was no reason for his existence and his death meant nothing to me because his character hadn't done anything especially endearing. What would have worked better would be if Qui Gon had been a Jedi Knight traveling with (rather than training) Obi Wan and Qui Gon had had some involvement with Shmi skywalker and promised her and Anakin that he would return and free her and all the slaves on Tatooine. That way his death would have represented a problem other than who was going to baby sit the kid.

And no, there was nothing that Anakin did that I really liked.

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 12:06 PM

1. The direction: No way. Anyone can use crosscutting now; it's shorthand to make scenes move together. Technically, it should only ever be used to show a transition of time, to introduce flashbacks, or to cover events that are happening simultaneously. I have seen it used just at random, to move around in scenes that happen on different days, even. This behaviour is unforgivable, since it just breaks up the action for no good reason. At least Lucas doesn't do this, but let me show you something:
- In the first film, STAR WARS, there is a single climactic action scene, the attack on the Death Star.
- In the second, THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, there are two action scenes, a lightsaber duel and a chase to rescue Han from the bounty hunter. These occur simultaneously and are brought together narratively with a kind of grace.
- in the third, THE RETURN OF THE JEDI, there are three action sequences cross-cut together: a battle on the moon of Endor, a naval battle between the Rebellion and the Empire, and a battle of wills (and lightsabers) on board the Death Star. These work together in a means-and-ends way, since the battle in space relies on the outcome of the battle on Endor, and the two partner to threaten the outcome of the duel on the Death Star. They are a symbiant circle, if you like, of action scenes.
- in the fourth film, THE PHANTOM MENACE, we are treated to four separate climaxes: Will Padme catch Nute Gunray or whoever the fuck she's chasing; will Anakin, WHO SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ON THE PLANET FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, do something important in the fighter plane he stumbles into; will the Gungun survive the battle for Naboo; will the two Jedi successfulkly gang up on Peter Kris from KISS? Needless to say, none of these action scenes is intersting or given any dimension, since the cutting is more important than the action.
- the fifth film failed me. I've asked a number of people, and all insist that no, Lucas does not cross-cut five actions scenes together. I am so disappointed by that; words cannot say. I had hoped that he would keep up the trend into the sequels, and the final installment could have a nine-screen split like in the Brady Bunch, maybe with characters crossing from one scene/frame to another like in TIME CODE. Man that would have kicked ass.

The other aspects of the direction, like the shot composition and the characterization, are just fine, except for the characterization.

2. Palpatine sucks. he's like the old man in the Scooby Doo episode who tells the group how the monster works: that guy was always the villain. Palpatine was transparent enough that kids who hadn't read the epigraph to the STAR WARS novelization still git that he was secretly that Sith guy. Come on.

3. I really liked the scene where Qui Gon left the Gun gun city and he broke down, looking back at all the other little toads and realizing that he'd only saved Jar Jar. The way he broke down and wept "I could have saved one more..." It really burned me that Tom Hanks and Tommy Lee Jones went on to get the Academy Awards that year, by the way.

4. The dinner? Is this the sceen where Qui Gon grabs Jar Jar's tongue? You have to be kidding about that one. This isn't THE LEOPARD; noone will ever remember the scene where all the characters sat down and ate.


Anyway, keep 'em coming jariten. so far I agree with you on all of these.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#26 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 12:32 PM

I'll chime in about the new guys comments


1
QUOTE
. The direction. This is something that rarely, if ever gets discussed, but its something that really got me (esp. on subsequent showings). Much like his major filmic influenece, Akira Kurasawa, Lucas chose the cross cut as his main device. TPM is an extremelly ambitious film by anyones standards, the multiple story lines could easily have come undone in the hands of a lesser director. Instead, TPM is well structured and tight, particulary in its middle section on Tatooine. Lucas uses the jump cut primarily to build drama and tension, and to keep things fresh in the narrative (a good example being Qui Gons "we havnt much time" line cutting straight to the Sith on Couruscant, giving the audience the feeling that the danger is close behind them). In fact, the ambitiousness of writing so many stories into one film, then having it work, strikes me as something worthy of more recognition than it got.


It has always been my assertation on this site that TPM is a good idea executed badll. The thing I do like about TPM is that the plot and overall structure is very simple and condensed........TPM is not an "over the top" movie like some blockbusters are.

I disagree with the multiple stories......TPM is really about the Jedis rescuing and helping Amidala get back her world.

When you think about it, Star Wars OT films never had multiple stories.......they were essentially one story line of Luke and his quest to become a Jedi Knight that "tiered" itself by having cast members separate themselves and later rejoin. "ex. Empire splits Luke of from Leia & Han then the return together at the end of the film.



TPM does not have multiple stories.

QUOTE
2. Palpatine. I just love this guy, and his inclusion makes TPM one of my favourites in the series. His rise to power is so well thought out, and so intelligent, that it makes him easily the best on screen bad guy in recent memory. His manipulation of the Queen, and the Jedi, and his ultimate shrouded victory at the end, gives TPM a great bittersweat finish. Lucas topped himself when he came up with the Sidous/Palpatine duality (as well as adding that to the rollcall of numerous important 'twos' and couplings present throughout the saga.


With the first movie yes, they do a good job showing him as a weasily politician with a hidden agenda. But for my taste they could have done his entrance into the story a little more subtely. Hell they practically almost have a sign over his head saying "I"M THE EMPEROR, YOU BLIND DUMB FOOLS!!!!!"

But I fail to see "any" sign of character development in the second film...considering BAIL ORGANA HAD MORE SCREEN TIME THAN HE DID!!!!!

This is just idiotic of Lucas to build up Palpatine's character and then practically turn him into a bit characte in Episode II.


QUOTE
3. Qui Gon. Surely even those who strongly dislike TPM can find something to like in this guy? The contrast between the ignorant, rigid and isolated (check out the Ivory Tower symbolism of the Jedi temple) makes QG my favourite Jedi of the saga. his insight, intellignce and lets not forget, humour (the look he gives Watto after winning the dice roll is priceless) cant be stated enough, and to me its another nod to Lucas' writing. hes also calm, nurturing and protective, everything AOTC's Obi Wan is not which surely begs the question what if he hadnt died? (a question that Lucas surely wanted the audience to ask)


I hate Qui-Gon for this eason;
He is an unnesecary character in the trilogy. All he does plot wise is introduce Anakin to Obi-Wan. Know how dumb is that? All of Qui-Gon's lines and actions..........could of and should have gone to Obi-Wan Kenobi. Qui Gon Jinn is so useless a character..........that he is completetly forgotten about in the second movie.

Qui-Gon took up screen space and actions from a more important Character in Obi-Wan.

In short, Qui-Gon {like Jar-Jar, Dooku & Mace Windau} are unnecessary characters taking up screen time from more important characters.

QUOTE
4. the dinner scene. seems like a strange inclusion maybe, but it was my favourite scene right from the first time i watched it. i love Anakins confidance, esp. in light of episode 2, but unlike in AOTC, here Anakin is totally altruistic, instead of self serving. look at the look of pride on Shmi's face when her son says "i can help, i can fix anything!" (another line that takes on a darker tone in light of episode two)

im kind of pressed for time, but ive got a lot more to write about, so ill add more later (sebulba, watto, the senate scene, the neimoidians, the battle droids etc. etc.)



Not a bad scene. Although Anakin's acts too much like a typical 21st century 10 year old. His performance and acting limits
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#27 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 07:10 PM

I remember the dinner scene now... can't say that was any good. And Jar Jar's antics were annoying, as always. Too bad... I thought I had forgotten it.
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#28 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 09:54 PM

QUOTE (Mike Mac from NYU @ Aug 24 2004, 12:32 PM)
But I fail to see "any" sign of character development in the second film...considering BAIL ORGANA HAD MORE SCREEN TIME THAN HE DID!!!!!

Well, consider Lucas added the Palpatine/Anikan scene as an AFTERTHOUGHT; in post.

I liked Qui-gon. Neeson brought weight to the film and that's why he was there. Unneccesary character? Uh, Yeah. But Lucas probably just added him to give some credence to the cast (think Sir Alec, or Cushing. Worked once.) If not Liam, who else? Hanks? One of the Godfather guys? It was just like using Brando in Superman. Not neccessary, but I gots money to spend. How else can I get some gravitas with this bullsh!t script?
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#29 User is offline   Commoner Icon

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 11:30 PM

I liked Qui-gon. Neeson brought weight to the film and that's why he was there. Unneccesary character? Uh, Yeah. But Lucas probably just added him to give some credence to the cast (think Sir Alec, or Cushing. Worked once.)

I like Qui-Gon, too, he's the only character with... well.. character... but his presence musses up too many things from the OT (like Obi-Wan finding Anakin), and Lucas didn't need a "star name" for crying out loud--he had something very few directors ever get---a built-in audience! Guiness and Cushing were only used because the studio insisted... at the time SW was unheard of, and they would bring fans of those known actors to the film. Lucas absolutely did NOT need to do this--not one damned bit!!!

The personality quirks of Qui-Gon were close enough to the Obi-Wan we knew in the OT that they could've been given to the PT Obi-Wan.

So much waste. So much. I don't want to hate Lucas anymore. I'm so sick and tired of this..

Okay, I'm going to bed. biggrin.gif
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#30 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 09:29 AM

QUOTE
I liked Qui-gon. Neeson brought weight to the film and that's why he was there. Unneccesary character? Uh, Yeah. But Lucas probably just added him to give some credence to the cast (think Sir Alec, or Cushing. Worked once.)




Obi Wan's character was necessary to the story.

General Moff Tarkin was a supporting character.


Liam Neeson's acting in TPM, was some of the most wooden acting I have ever seen in Star Wars. Emotionless.
Neeson almost looks bored in the role.

Sir Alec, nearly stole the show in Star Wars A New Hope. He looked spry, confident, and fit in perfectly with the cast and the surroundings.
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