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Why I like the prequels (part one- TPM)

#121 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 02:30 PM

QUOTE (Moyale @ Jan 5 2007, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I saw the original trilogy, kind of liked most of it, forgot about it, and and when Phantom menace showed up, went to see it. Sure it was kind of childish, but I had seen Jedi, and the newest Indianna Jones movie, and it wasn't as stupid as either of those movies. Why the hatred. If anything it should be merely a bored dismissal - like maybe I should have gone into theater 12 instead and seen that one... oh well.


Speaking of Indiana Jones, are you talking about the Temple of Doom, which did come out a little bit after ROTJ, or are you talking about The Last Crusade?

All I can say about that is, The Temple of Doom was a bit more on the fun/silly side of Indiana Jones, but I'd watch that anyday over the Phantom Menace. And the Last Crusade has all of the PT whipped! (no pun intended, seriously.)

I don't know about this new Indiana Jones film... Lucas says it's going to be "cool." Yeah, he said that about EP III also and look what we're given, *Remembers Palps face while fighting Windu*
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#122 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 04:35 PM

How could some wheelchair driving Indiana Jones be cool? *shakes his head* If only they had done that a bit earlier...

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#123 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 05:29 PM

QUOTE (Gobbler @ Jan 5 2007, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How could some wheelchair driving Indiana Jones be cool? *shakes his head* If only they had done that a bit earlier...


I don't know, Harrison Ford keeps showing up on the gossip shows and talking about how he's fit to play the role again and George Lucas is just smiling like all will be well. And I hate to say it, but I'm sure most of this film is going to be filmed in a sound studio with green screen backgrounds. Not unless Spielberg puts on his pants, cracks the whip, and kicks Lucas out of the way!
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#124 User is offline   Jaded Wolf Icon

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 05:36 PM

I can agree with you on what you said Moyale. I think the prequel wasn't the best work and there were expectations I had. However, as I said in another post, this wasn't my story to tell. It was George Lucas' story. Now, I know we are the money bringers for his fame because it us who spends money on his products. Still though, George Lucas had every right to make the story the way he wanted to. It's his story! Should he have respect for the fans? Definetely! LIke I said above, we bring the dough. However, there comes a point where the writers have to ask themselves "am I writing this or the fans?" My whole thought is if half of these people who argued on here about the fallicies of the prequels could make a better presentation, than do so. There are books, graphic novels, video game industries who hire creative talent all the time. Lucasfilms licenses their products to said writers and give them an opportunity. I wish people would put their money where their mouth is and create something better. Until then, let the author tell his story. Disagree or agree with them for telling it the way they do, offer some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, but never flame someone because of what they wrote. How mature and human is that?
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#125 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 05:25 AM

I have only read two EU things in my entire life; one was Shadows of the Empire; the other was Tales of the Bounty Hunters: Star Wars. Neither of these really deal with anything that happens prior to ANH and my expectations for the PT had nothing to do with what I'd read in the books. I never cared if the PT didn't have anything to do with any of the books. My expectations for the PT were based solely on what I had seen in the OT and what Lucas had said the storyline of the PT would be.

I will agree, in part, that some of my disappointment with the PT films was because my expectations were very, very high. But you know what? I'm a fan of the Lord of the Rings trilogy too, and my expectations for those movies were just as high (and I've seen most of the other film versions of those stories), and Lord of the Rings did not disappoiont me. The reason is because the people who were making the Lord of the Rings films knew and respected the story they were telling and stayed very true to the source material; and when they did depart from it, it was generally in the spirit of the novels. The PT didn't do that; when Lucas made the prequels he blatantly disregarded the story that he'd written up to that point. That's why the movies were disappointing.

I'm not going to argue over the quality of the storylines in the OT versus the PT; whether or not the OT storylines are flawed or not is irrelevant; all that matters is that Lucas had 3 movies that were canon and he made all of the prequels without any regard for them. I'm not asking for anything to tie in with any of the books; I am asking for some consistency in the movies. For example: when Obi-Wan is explaining to Luke that his father wasn't a navigator on a space freighter, he says:

QUOTE
That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.


Now how the hell is the PT related to the backstory that's set up here? According to the PT, Owen barely even knows Anakin; he meets him for the first time when his step-mother is kidnapped; he certainly is in no position to say one thing or the other about Anakin's ideals or tell him not to get involved in a galactic war.

Or, how about when Obi-Wan gives Luke his lightsaber:

QUOTE
I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like your father did.


Again, Owen isn't around when the Jedi come and take Anakin away; and it's not Obi-Wan who takes him anyway, it's some guy named Qui-Gon Jinn.

And this isn't nitpicking; this is the source material that any conscientious writer and director would have looked to if they were going to write a prequel. This is the backstory that Lucas wrote way back in 1977; he should be pretty familiar with it.

My objection isn't to how Lucas chose to tell the story; all I object to is that it was supposed to be a prequel to Star Wars when it really didn't have much to do with the OT. Sure, we got some background on the birth of the Empire, but what we were supposed to get was the backstory of the characters who appeared in the original movie, and we didn't get that. Maybe it does just come down to people's expectations, but Lucas was the one who kept saying that this was going to be Anakin Skywalker's story, so I think I had a reasonable expectation that what I was going to see would have some resemblance to the backstory that I could piece together based on dialogue in the OT.

And I guess that's where you could say the hatred comes from; because a lot of fans felt that they'd been promised one thing, and what they got was something else entirely.

As far as constructive criticism goes, it's a two-way street; criticism should make suggestions that will lead to improvement, but the person being critiqued has to be willing to listen and make changes. I refer back to Lord of the Rings again, because the people making those movies I believe were aware of how previous attempts had failed, as well as what the expectations of fans were, and they took those things into consideration when they made the movies. The director still told the story he wanted to tell, but he was open to suggestions.

The prequels never made any attempt to be considerate of the fans or the story; they were made to basically cash in on the franchise, and that's what made a lot of people mad. If we'd been smart, we wouldn't have gone back after The Phantom Menace; but, you know, I'd been waiting a long time for these, so, I had to see them to their conclusion. And there you have it. I feel raped.

johnnycancer

This post has been edited by johnnycancer: 06 January 2007 - 05:39 AM

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#126 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 06:05 AM

As for me, I said I wouldn't watch any of them, but ended up seeing Phantom Menace on opening day (I was managing a movie theatre at the time). It sucked. I haven't seen the other prequels, and I won't bother; they suck too.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#127 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 01:44 PM

Awesome post, JohnnyCancer.
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#128 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 12:05 AM

QUOTE (Moyale @ Jan 5 2007, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It seems to me that the problem for many people about the prequels is that they have all read too much of the extended universe and too many fan magazines. If you have a preconceived notion about what they prequel story was supposed to be - yes the obvious one where anakin is 18, a jedi in the space navy, etc. etc - and you knew that palpatine was the emperor and padme was amidala and you knew that Darth Maul was supposed to be the new bad ass villain, then I guess you could be disapointed. Not enough Darth Maul, too much Qui Gonn, and the mysteries obvious. Whose fault is that?


I don't think it's the fault of the EU at all. Watching the Classic Trilogy gives you preconcieved notions of the backstory that is then shattered by the PT.

Qui Gon Jinn was an interesting character and Liam Neeson was probably the highlight of Episode I, apart from the cool saber battle at the end. That he was killed off didn't bother me in the least. The question to ask is, why was the creation of his character necessary in the first place? We had no idea in the OT that any such character ever existed.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to instead have a mature Obi-Wan Kenobi and have him act like Qui Gon Jinn acted? And have him live. Instead of introducing three throwaway villians for the prequels (Darth Maul, Count Dooku and General Greivous) why not instead have a single strong villian (like Vader played in the OT)? That would allow for more of a character arc and such. But it seems Lucas either can't write complex characters and so he has to skip around, or he deliberately wanted to fool the fans into thinking that maybe THIS character is the major villian, no wait, maybe this one is, etc. to keep them guessing.

Because obviously, we aren't going to assume that Obi-Wan or Anakin get killed in the PT, because we see them in the OT... so any villian he introduces we're going to wonder what happened to him, right? Why not use some established villian, like Jabba, or Tarkin or something? Or make a group of "Sith" and have Palpatine just be one of them and not the mastermind all along (like he's just had to take over after the others are killed or maybe he kills them, that would have been interesting).

Anyway...

Don't assume that being a prequel hater means you are an EU lover!

Likewise the prequels all set up certain expectations that were then shattered with each new movie to come out.

And Lucas himself also contributed to the "preconceived notions" via his statements in interviews, long before the EU works started being published.

So the fact that the story changed was not the fault of fans who believed Lucas, or the EU writers who were just echoing Lucas' wishes or working within boundaries that he himself set for them back then.

The PT doesn't gel with the OT because Lucas made them that way... nothing more, nothing less. He could have tried harder to make them go together when making each movie, but he didn't.

When the prequels were set to be made, I didn't really know what to expect. Once TPM was out, I was prepared for the entire EU to be chucked out and frankly I didn't care, since I didn't like the direction the EU was going at the time anyway, and I considered much of it to be subpar crap.

Of course the Prequels didn't exactly prove to be much better than a lot of the EU (except in terms of spectacle afforded by budget mind you) but I consider it more genuine a Star Wars experience simply because it's made by the same creator as the original movie. He also had far more control over the prequels than he did of the OT (then again, he could have taken more of a hand in ESB and ROTJ than he did, but he chose to delegate to others, so it's his "Fault" in that case too).


It's not my fault that Lucas came up with Darth Maul. It's also not the EU's fault, since they didn't even concieve of the character before his introduction in TPM. I was not "disappointed" that Darth Maul appeared, now was it my fault that he was underused as just a throwaway villian. Lucas again chose that himself.

I never read the "Shadow Hunter" EU stuff that portrayed Maul as so awesome.

The fact is, nobody had ever heard of Darth Maul before TPM and he was introduced and killed off in the same movie.

I also avoided spoilers before TPM. Obviously I saw this black wearing, devil faced guy with a double bladed red lightsaber in the official trailers, so I knew somebody was going to appear like that. But I didn't know he'd be killed off. I didn't consider the movie a failure because it killed him, anymore than I consider ROTJ a failure because Boba Fett died (and didn't die in the spectacular fashion that Fett fanboys would have wanted).

Again, the creation of expectations and the shattering of those expectations are purely Lucas' fault.


It's a good try to say that fans had unrealistic expectations, but seriously... doesn't hold water.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 07 January 2007 - 12:09 AM

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#129 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 04:11 AM

Another thing that I'd like to point out is, in ESB, Obi-wan tells Luke to go see Yoda. Obi-Wan also tells Luke that Yoda trained him.

When we see EP I, we see that Yoda didn't train Obi-wan at all, it was Qui-gon all the way. If anything, it seems that either Yoda had no padawan or he might have trained Dooku. And if Yoda did train Dooku, then he couldn't take up Obi-wan at all. There's that rule of "two's" floating around, even for the Jedi. A Jedi is allowed to train only one.

Also, about killing Maul off in EP I, I thought it was a big mistake. We didn't know his origins, but we saw that he had power. I feel that he should have been the villain through all three films of the PT. Instead, we have Maul who is no more than a cashcrop character for the sake of action figure sales and the decoration of Mountain Dew cans.

Aside from that, I can't say that I love the EU, but I do enjoy stories that make more sense than any of the prequels. As for "Shadow Hunter," that book was only good when it talked about Maul, his origins, and how he wanted to tear everything apart! The book focused too much on the Jedi. For chapters on end, Maul wouldn't even be mentioned and it's all pointless banter between Jedi and "supporting" characters. My advice, find the book in a bookstore, read all the Maul parts, put book away, leave. It'll only take you about an hour, seriously.
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#130 User is offline   Moyale Icon

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 06:30 AM

Gave Up reading Star Wars fiction after Splinter of the minds eye, and some early Han Solo book. What a load of crap! Sorry to paint all the new fiction with the same brush, but I can't be bothered to try and read some little story which has to run in circles so as to not contradict anything else that has supposedly "happened" or is going to happen.

Phantom Menace scores half a point by introducing Qui Gon for the above reason - nobody knew he was coming. Kurgan X wonders if it would make more sense to instead have mature Obi-Wan Kenobi and have him act like Qui Gon, or some established villian, like Jabba, or Tarkin. Maybe it would have made more sense, but when you are remodeling the house, you shouldn't just change the paint from "beige" to "off white". Knock a couple of walls down and put in a new fireplace.

Phantom Menace sucked in the same way that Indianna Jones and the last cruasade sucked, Jedi sucked, beyond thunderdome sucked, back to the futures 2 and 3 sucked, etc. The films did not take themselves at all seriously, and THAT sucks!
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#131 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 12:35 AM

QUOTE (Moyale @ Jan 9 2007, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gave Up reading Star Wars fiction after Splinter of the minds eye, and some early Han Solo book. What a load of crap!


Couldn't agree more. I had a typical teenage boy's reaction where Luke looked at the sleeping Leia's lips and had the same thoughts. Now I feel like I need therapy. How did Alan Dean Foster write this and Lucas *not* find out about it.

Another dart in the baloon of Lucas' "I've planned it all along"

QUOTE (Moyale @ Jan 9 2007, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sorry to paint all the new fiction with the same brush, but I can't be bothered to try and read some little story which has to run in circles so as to not contradict anything else that has supposedly "happened" or is going to happen.


Like the end of Basic Instinct when you realize the director is just screwing with your mind.

There's one modern fantasy author, sorry can't remember his name, who freely admits that it's a nightmare keeping his books consistent (they've very complex) and that fans send him lists of things that he's done. He good naturedly accepts them and corrects the contradictions.
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#132 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 01:58 AM

I wonder why I never got around to finishing this one, let alone 2 and 3.
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#133 User is offline   Celski Icon

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 03:34 AM

I wasn't sold on a single word out of the older anakin's mouth... straight up bad acting. Come on, thats the best lucas could find for anakin. I mean its anakin skywalker/darthvader sick,SICK character. Very disappointing. For the most part I liked all the movies though... they're time-less!
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#134 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 09:06 AM

QUOTE (Celski @ Apr 6 2007, 03:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For the most part I liked all the movies though... they're time-less!

For me the meaning is I watched them one time-less, X1000, than the originals.
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#135 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 14 July 2007 - 12:47 AM

TPM mst be decent: I remember most of the film even though I haven't seen it in years. Astounding. biggrin.gif
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