[Just your average movie goer]

it's entirely plausible that a galaxy-wide slave trade would be almost impossible to wipe out altogether - but that the Jedi weren't even trying to do anything about it.

Exactly! This is the heart of the problem, folks. It's not that slavery existed, clones were used as fodder and private organisations were allowed to build their own armies that could occupy whole planets...

It's that the Republic and the Jedi Knights seemed to be rather apathetic about it and in the instances of the clones and private armies, they practically condoned them.

[Vwing]

Ok, for whatever reason, I'll try to defend Lucas here.

Slavery - What could the Jedi have done? Send a task force to Tatooine and threaten to destroy the planet if the slaves weren't freed? Cut up all of the slave owners? I mean I thought it was clear that they did not like the fact there were slaves, but were smart enough to know that there really was nothing they could do about it (and they probably also couldn't get the support of the republic which was crumbling at the time).

With the clone issue I'm going to wait till Episode III because I heard that that was an issue that is going to be explored in the movie, so I don't want to condemn Lucas for that right away. I think Obi-Wan has a clone friend or something I don't remember exactly what it was.

More later, gotta go now.

[Madam Corvax]

Actually, we did see slavery in the OT - Jabba had slaves in his palace in RotJ.

Oh yes, I’ve forgotten about Jabba’s slaves. But of course this would be possible under Empire regime – I do not think Empire would mind at all slavery and other forms of repression. It is just that it wasn’t that obvious in ANH.

I admit it becomes harder and harder for me to entangle the logic that underlies the linking of both universes – OT and PT. The deeper we go into details, more and more cracks are revealed.

That is why I wholeheartedly agree with JYAMG, that ripping someone else’s ideas is not a bad thing at all. I was trying to think, though, which films might be suitable for ripping in this case, and I could not think of any. He might have ripped from himself, and the result could be better (but still might not be satisfactory, I think – I saw Alien 4 last night and the film stole from Aliens wherever it was possible, but it did not make it a good film).

Maybe the problem is, that while striving for originality, Lucas did the ultimately stupid thing – decided on prequels rather then on sequels. Was it done before? I can’t recall any examples. Well, Tolkien created this whole universe, and devoted his whole like to it, and even here there are inconsistencies between Silmarillion and LOTR books, and there is no competition who is a better writer.

The principle of good story telling is to start from the beginning. He violated this principle, and since the idea was not planned properly, the result is an overwhelming lack of logic in the whole project.

[Helena]

Slavery - What could the Jedi have done?  Send a task force to Tatooine and threaten to destroy the planet if the slaves weren't freed?  Cut up all of the slave owners?  I mean I thought it was clear that they did not like the fact there were slaves, but were smart enough to know that there really was nothing they could do about it (and they probably also couldn't get the support of the republic which was crumbling at the time). 

As long as Tatooine was technically part of the Republic - and it appeared to be, since Qui-Gon was trying to use Republic credits there - they could have searched for people involved in the slave-trade, arrested them and sent them for trial. The Republic had its problems at this point but it was not 'crumbling'; its laws were still in force. Even without the Republic's involvement, if an armed Jedi task force marched in and announced that they were closing down the slave markets, I doubt they would face much resistance. As a last resort they could have tried buying the slaves' freedom; at the very least they should have freed Anakin's mother!

[HK 47]

One thing that has yet to be touched upon in this thread is the conditions of Tatooine slaves. Did anyone here feel that Anakin + mom were miserable? They had their own house, they invited guests to dinner which insinuates more food than they could eat themselves, Anakin got to build droids and podracers and even compete himself. etc etc. There were NO scenes whatsoever depicting any mistreatment or the misery of these so-called slaves. Oh sure, they had the explosive collar thing but that was only casually mentioned. You have to SHOW us why being a slave sucks George! Otherwise it won't mean anything.

And don't even get me started on why Naboo didn't at least free Anakins mom. Or why Obi-Wan didn't. I wonder why the Jedi feel it's ok to train someone who's really scared due to his mom being a slave when they could easily free her. "No Anakin, your mother has to stay here as a slave and later die horribly. Are you scared? Good! Because fear is what we Jedi value in our apprentices..." Inexcusably stupid!

[Helena]

Another good point. Anakin's mother seemed more like a maid than a slave, and Anakin himself seemed to get plenty of free time (and apparently a good education as well, since he was able to build artificially-intelligent droids.) Maybe that's why the Jedi didn't free the slaves - they just thought 'oh well, their living conditions are fine and they seem happy enough...'

[Just your average movie goer]

The principle of good story telling is to start from the beginning. He violated this principle, and since the idea was not planned properly, the result is an overwhelming lack of logic in the whole project.

This is probably the fundamental root of all the problems with the prequel trilogy. Thank you, Madam Corvax. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Even without the Republic's involvement, if an armed Jedi task force marched in and announced that they were closing down the slave markets, I doubt they would face much resistance.

Absolutely. I cannot see how stopping Tatooine's slavers would be much of a challenge for a group of Jedi Knights.

[SimeSublime]

I never thought Tatooine was part of the Republic, but rather a rogue planet ruled by the Huts. It accepted republic credits in the same way that many small nations will except stronger moneys.

Alternativly, it could have been part of the republic, ruled by its own monarchs(namely, the Huts). Amidala was a Queen in her own right, and it was implied that it was a position of power and not just for show, so why can't the Huts make decisions on the running of their own planet?

[Helena]

It's not made entirely clear, but like I said, there were still things the Jedi could have done even if it wasn't part of the Republic. After all, they themselves were not technically part of the Republic's government, just affiliated with it.

[Just your average movie goer]

Never liked the idea of Tatooine being owned by the Hutts, personally. I thought it stank to high heaven and was another example of childish writing.

[Xombie]

Well, of course the Republic's values are skewed. That's George Lucas's whole point. The Empire is a dictatorship and evil and the Republic is a great democratic organization but that does not, in Lucas's eyes make it the moral opposite of the Empire. The Republic, as he portrays it, is a collection of weak touchy-feely fools who can be trusted only to sell themselves into tyranny. How foolish? A brief speech from Jar Jar Binks is all it takes for the Galactic Senate to give future-Hitler Palpatine the police-state powers he needs to propel himself to power. Tyrant Palpatine easily sees through Jar Jar. But you know those stupid elected politicians! Har Har.

Lucas sneers at democracy from beginning to end. The heroes are not democrats. They are the Jedi, a mystical order that, Lucas makes clear in the new films, are based on heredity. I have pointed out in previous posts that the Emperor is obviously Hitler and Vader is Himmler. Lucas's sympathies are clearly not with the forces of democracy. If this is all a metaphor for the tragedy of the Third Reich then Lucas is yearning for a return to the Old Aristocratic Order. His heroes and heroines are Princesses and Queens and knights who can't be bothered to rescue a common woman from slavery.

By his own admission, Lucas made these films for kids. And what are the lessons he gives them? Democracy is a joke, the elite few are biologically endowed with a right to rule, and, of course, the deaths of billions is not as important as the redemption of one ubermensch's soul.

You all can hate Lucas because he has Greedo shoot first now. I'll continue to hate him because of the moral vileness of the rot he pushes to children.

[Helena]

That's a very interesting idea, Xombie, and I would agree with you if it weren't for a couple of things:

Lucas insists on Naboo's 'Queen' being elected, at the expense of all logic and common sense. This does not imply a dislike of democracy, but rather a somewhat naive glorification of it.

As we've been discussing, the Prequels make the Jedi appear almost as stupid and morally bankrupt as the Republic.

I don't think Lucas has anything against democracy, to be honest. I think he just doesn't understand politics, which is why he comes up with stupid ideas like fourteen-year-old elected queens and a Senate which allows the Trade Federation to have its own army and Jar Jar Binks to become a Senator. Like everything else in the prequels, he makes up all this stuff as he goes along because he's not a good enough writer to think of anything better.

[Just your average movie goer]

I agree with Helena. However, you presented a very interesting theory, Xombie. If Lucas was a good writer, then this theory would hold. If he only has the writing skills of a ten year old, as most of us believe (no offence to ten year olds), then...

well, that kind of explains itself, I guess. Either way, this -

You all can hate Lucas because he has Greedo shoot first now. I'll continue to hate him because of the moral vileness of the rot he pushes to children.

- is fantastic. Another great reason to hate Lucas, his prequels and his special editions.

[SimeSublime]

I never really looked at the political side before, but rather the religious issues. The hero's are the Jedi, this mystical group of paladins, holy knights ripped pretty much straight from a D&D game. The villians, are the Empire and Sith. The power of the empire is in its advanced technology(capital ships and death stars)and the Sith are the personification of natural selection.
I know its not cannon, but to take from Knights of the Old Republic:

Peace is a lie.
Through passion I gain strenght.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power my chains are broken.
The force will set me free.

Urg, its been to long since I've played it, I'm rusty. But the Sith belive that the apprentice should kill the master when he has the strength to do so, so as to cull the weak from the flock

And like I said before, KotOR isn't cannon, but it has a hell of a better storyline then the Prequal Trilogies, Battle Meditation or no.

[Paladin]

[/QUOTE]Jar Jar Binks to become a Senator.[QUOTE]

Another reason why the prequels stink.The Star Wars database claims that Jar Jar is a rare example of an 'honest' politican. What makes this so stupid is the fact the every single politician in history and currently is a cheat. Anything coming near an 'honest' politician would have his career strangled and torn down like a condemned shack. There's no way he could have made it anywhere, let alone be one for a full ten years (or was he brand new? I don't know).

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fourteen-year-old elected queens

I remember when I was 14 years old very well. myself and every other 14 year older around me were probably the single most immature bunch of nitwits on the planet. I could barely get myself off the PC to do some important work and studying, and same went to almost everyone else. Just how could a 14 year older possibly do anything other than screw things up?

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a Senate which allows the Trade Federation to have its own army

Even though it wasn't mentioned in the movie, I read somewhere that private armies were extremely common in many areas, so their 'voices can be heard -- or at least, not silenced quickly'. How's that for lame writing? It almost looks like they're not in a senate or union, but some kind of mafia or UN.

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Like everything else in the prequels, he makes up all this stuff as he goes along because he's not a good enough writer to think of anything better.

When I was 16 till halfway my 18th year, my story writing was essentially that -- going along with no direction and only a skeleton worth of pre-planning. Now, at age 20 (actually, I started it at age 19), I've decided to have a mor thorough plan of every story I intend to write. Not only will it be more entertaining to my readers, but it'll also remove the feeling of embarassment that I might get in later years as I look back at some of my older writings, which I tend to feel from time to time.

George Lucas, however, is very different from this. Being an aging man in his 50's, and having been making movies ever since 1970, I would think that he would learn the lessons that I learned far earlier than that and more properly. But I guess even a sucker like me can write something better... and when I'm 50, I'll bet I can do a far better job than him!

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The hero's are the Jedi, this mystical group of paladins, holy knights ripped pretty much straight from a D&D game.

Not exactly. George Lucas modeled the Jedi after Japanese Samurai when he lived there somewhere in the mid 70's. Even the word 'Jedi' is derived from some Japanese word for something, but I just can't remember it.

Oh, BTW, as for Paladins, you should know that Paladins in D&D are normally modeled after 'holy' warriors of the Middle Ages. In some games they follow the code of a certain god or divine being as their idea of good. In the Quest for Glory game series, Paladins are 'Goodie two-shoes', the 'hero of heroes' and some other stuff. They presumably have to do everything the 'right' way regardless of whether it's legal or not. It's a pretty long subject, and I really don't have all that much time to discuss it (not to mention not being in the mood anyway).

Anyhow, as a historic note, Real Life Paladins were any of the 12 peers in King Charlamagne court back in the 8th century. One Paladin was even responsible for pushing the Islamic invaders of Europe out of France at the battle of Tours.