[Helena]

Going by their portrayal in KOTOR, there are many parallels between the Sith and the Nazis. They seem to advocate a sort of Nietzschean fascism (only the strong should survive, that sort of thing), and they consider the alien races inferior to humans. Although the Nazis didn't spend all their time fighting amongst themselves...

As for the Jedi, their philosophy seems closer to Buddhism than anything else I can think of. But apart from the 'following a god' thing, I agree that they're quite similar to the Paladins in D&D and other such games (my brother was a D&D fan for a while, so I know a little about it).

[Xombie]

Helena,

I have no idea why Lucas went with the whole elcted queen concept. I have defended the idea as being "explainable" but Lucas has never bothered to offer his explanation for it so for all I know it really is as stupid as it initially sounds.

However, I hardly think it's Lucas glorifying democracy. Its obvious that Lucas thinks Amidala is a great queen. She's brave, pretty and quick-witted. She can talk the gunguns into joining with humanity with the briefest of speeches. She should be a great hero. But now, in the moment of crisis, she can't be queen any more because the supreme court has ruled that she can only have two term limits. Now, everyone has complained about an elected queen but let's be honest, no one says that she was elected by the people. She could have been appointed by an elite council or something. Maybe. Maybe not. In any case we do not see a democratic process putting Amidala in a position of power. We do, however, have a reference to the rules and bureacracy of a, possibly, democratic state removing a beloved leader from the people.

Obviously, the people who built these checks and balances into the system were foolish in Lucas's eyes. The people cry out for a great inspiring leader and are thwarted by pointy-headed political technocrats. Because in GL's crackpot world, tyranny doesn't come from monarchs like Amidala riding a cult of personality wave. It comes from spineless little democrats passing meaningless resolutions in the senate, or congress, or parliment and brainlessly handing over power to a scheming politician.

And as for the Jedi knights being morons. To us! Does anyone think George Lucas thinks the missing planet plot is anything other than a good mystery? I think the evidence is that Lucas thinks the Jedi still kick ass.

[Just your average movie goer]

I think some of us are giving Lucas far more credit than he deserves here. I believe most of these things are simply the result of lousy writing.

[HK 47]

I think some of us are giving Lucas far more credit than he deserves here. I believe most of these things are simply the result of lousy writing.

I hear you. It's very common among a lot of fans to try and find rational explanations for the world-killer-asteroid sized problems in the PT. Go to theforce.net and revel in the pain of Star Wars fans who desperately make up excuse after excuse on Georges behalf. These are people who are in denial that he doesn't care about the fans or Star Wars. They make up the most ridiculous, far-fetched explanations to cover his ass. Hopefully, one day, they will understand.

[Helena]

I think some of us are giving Lucas far more credit than he deserves here.  I believe most of these things are simply the result of lousy writing.

Exactly. I could argue this further, but I really don't think I can be bothered - sorry, Xombie, but all I can say is I think you're reading far too much into this. The only impression I get from the prequels is that Lucas likes the idea of democracy but doesn't really understand anything about it; I don't think he's anywhere near smart enough to be 'subverting' it in the manner you claim.

[Just your average movie goer]

I think George's approach to planning these stories would be more along the lines of this...

Hmmm.... I'd really like to make a scene like the chariot race from Ben Hurr...

[Jordan]

You're stomping on something they love. Wether the movies were garbage or gold is not the issue. They love SW. Anything Lucas shits on a script, they will worship.

I've never in my life, since 1999, met one person who claimed that the PT's are good movies. But they are out there.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 12 August 2004 - 08:53 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

True. But should we pity these people or despise them? It's a bit hard to tell.

[Despondent]

Either way, it's a waste of emotion.

if you must; pray for them.

[SouthernRonin]

Hey guys,

Just finished reading the whole thread, thought I'd throw my two cents in. (Some of the gratest tragedies in history began with that line, but history be darned!)

I agree with almost everything that has been stated here so far, there were just a few things I thought I'd bring up.

SLAVE CONDITIONS ON TATOOINE
To be honest, as far as I can remember, there is no proof that the SKywalker home on Tatooine was a slave district. I haven't seen the films in a while, but I don't remember any sort of sign or bit of dialogue indicating that what we were seeing was indeed a slave district at all.

Far be it from me to defend the PT (If you've seen Fall of a Saga, you know I'm the last parson to do that), but doesn't it seem possible that Shmi might have been living an elevated existence at Watto's discretion? That hints at all sorts of darker relationships between Shmi and Watto (things that could never be outright said in the child-friendly PT universe). That kind of situation is not uncommon at all amongst slave/master relationships (at least in the movies).

Do I think that Lucas planned that? Probably not. But it makes for a very interesting idea, doesn't it?


ON THE OLD TRILOGY VERSUS THE NEW
Let's face it guys. Lucas hasn't done anything different with the PT than with the OT. The only difference is that now he's Mr. Lucasfilm, whereas in the 70's he was just little Georgie Lucas. In the 70's there was any number of people with the guts to look him in the eye and say, "George, you're insane."

Let me give you an example. ESB is most often considered the best of the entire Star Wars saga. But you may remember that when Lucas saw Irvin Kirschner's first cut of the film, he flipped out, shouting that it was too slow, amongst other things.

Lucas locked himself away in the editing room and recut the entire film, emerging some time later with a horribly paced, quick-quick-quick cut of the film.

Everyone generally agreed (and even Lucas eventually admitted) that the new cut of the film was atrocious. Kirschner was allowed to go back and recut the film.

THAT'S the difference between then and now. There is no producer, no director big enough to tell George Lucas he's wrong. "I made Star Wars, I can't be wrong."

Well, yes, Lucas did make Star Wars. But he had a lot of people along the way that helped him cut out a lot of his nonsense. Unlike folks like Robert Altman, Lucas seems to have forgotten that, or else does not heed it.

Frankly, I feel sorry for him. It has to be lonely at the top, and who can he turn to that will give him an honest answer about anything? Rick McCallum?

I'm not even GOING INTO the Rick McCallum situation.

This post has been edited by SouthernRonin: 12 August 2004 - 02:15 PM

[HK 47]

That hints at all sorts of darker relationships between Shmi and Watto (things that could never be outright said in the child-friendly PT universe). That kind of situation is not uncommon at all amongst slave/master relationships (at least in the movies). Do I think that Lucas planned that? Probably not. But it makes for a very interesting idea, doesn't it?

I'm sorry if I misunderstand you here Ronin but, ah, "darker relationships"? If you are implying what I'm thinking, it's a mind-bending horrible idea. I don't mean to slam the new guy, but come oooon man! A "dark slave/master relationship" between Watto and Shmi?!??! You're joking right?

[Jordan]

Watto was pleasent. He didn't do anything shifty other than try screw over Qui Gonn, but can you blame him? Qui Gonn undermined him by using a Jedi Mind, then cheated him by manipulating the outcome of the die roll.

I'm not sure there was one dark bone in his body.

[njamilla]

  Hmmm.... I'd really like to make a scene like the chariot race from Ben Hurr...

I think this is exactly how certain scenes got into the movie. Look at the chase in AOTC. In the DVD commentary he basically admits he wanted to have a racing scene because he likes speed. Kind of like a ride at Disney. You may like the theme so you get in line, but you may or may not end up liking it after its all done.

[SouthernRonin]

Watto was pleasent. He didn't do anything shifty other than try screw over Qui Gonn, but can you blame him?

Perhaps my arguement led too much towards the dramatic (altho, don't you think that it has a lot more pathos than just "Shmi lives good"? heheh). If you like, you might say that perhaps Watto gives them preferential treatment because of Anakin's superior mechanical (or podracing) skills.

My point was simply that, perhaps they did lead a better lifestyle than most slaves. However, if that IS true, it should have been made more clear, because I think it would have added a great deal to the drama (If Anakin leaves, does that mean Shmi has to go back to living in the slave quarters?)

[Just your average movie goer]

Look at the chase in AOTC. In the DVD commentary he basically admits he wanted to have a racing scene because he likes speed. Kind of like a ride at Disney. You may like the theme so you get in line, but you may or may not end up liking it after its all done.

I like your wording there. Very cool. Yes, it's not much of story-writing approach, is it?