[Jordan]

You want a good villian? Check out Tim Roth in Rob Roy. He was so evil in his role -forgot the name- that I wanted to kill him.

[civilian_number_two]

Ok Helen, didn't want to piss you off or go off on a rant about socialism (which obviously I like). The only reason I jumped in there was that it sounded like you were about to turn into one of those Ayn Rand supporters, with whom I love to pick fights. From your last post I don't get that impression.

Of course I would prefer Vader to be a character with a back story than just a boring heavy, but we got what we got. I don't happen to buy the back story we were given. I don't think it's been shown yet that Anakin will grow up to be Vader, and I think I've given enough examples of the sort of guy I think Anakin will grow up into and the sort of compleetly different guy that grows up into Darth Vader. I also agree with everyone here who suspects that the much-anticipated expanation of Vader will come in the third film, will get lost in the shuffle, overwhelmed by a dozen plot points and a few car chases and sword fights. All this stuff about the Dark Side consuming you, MAKING you evil, well that'd be fine if I thought it could actually happen (see Willow in BUFFY), but if you want a story about people who get in to evil and then can't get out, watch CASINO, or the very fine if shallow SEXY BEAST. Vader retains his character the whole time, and I see nothing in the "young" Palpatine to convince me he loses his mind by the later films. He is just a nasty guy, and likes to throw his weight around.

The idea that Vader would need to be ambitious to rise in the Jedi order doesn't really wash with me. It's not like he has a complicated role; he could easily be Alex, which is why I offered the example of Paul Bettany in GANGSTER NO 1 (which I know at least Jordan will run out and see, since he works in a video store, right Jordan?). He's muscle, and doesn't need to know which goons he's supposed to be busting up until the man tells him. Then he walks into the room fists first, with Stormtroopers in tow. I don't see any evidence he's a "shell of his former self," as Rory puts it, until the last 30 minutes of JEDI. Up until then he looks to me exactly like a mob heavy, the kind of guy you keep around because he actually enjoys the violence, and doesn't even want to get into the politics of it. He's the guy behind the guy (exactly like Archie Cunningham of ROB ROY, good call there Jordan!), which is again why I think fans of Anakin, had they watched the films in order, would be pretty disaappointed to see their guy fade into the background like that without so much as a by your leave. His big moment of growth is when he decides not actually to do good but to kill his boss in order to take power for himself. His "repentance" at the end comes from the fact that he screwed up, and got hisself all killed, nothing else. He's like Pacino at the end of CARLITO'S WAY: he wants to retire, but he still wants to be remembered and respected as a good fella.

So yeah, Old Republic Ethics. What up with that?

[jariten]

listen, its not like im sitting down and forcing myself to like these films, or to connect one anakin with the next. and im certainly not going to refer to any EU stuff either.　im just using what Lucas put up there on the screen. and Maul does remind me of Vader, both are cold bloodied, remorseless killers. isnt it possible that Maul too went through moments of severe conflict, confusion and anguish before he picked up the red lightsabre? is it too much of a reach to believe that Anakin might have gone through a similar conflict, or that any of us would when going through such a big change? all the reasons for this conflict and for his gradual turn to the dark side are right up there on screen.

[Rory]

I think there are a lot of criticisms you can make of the prequels... That Anakin doesn't show any signs of becoming Vader really isn't one of them; if anything, they beat us over the head with it. Hes reckless, he feels he is being held back, he kills a bunch of sand people in a blind rage, etc.

I have to disagree that Vader's position doesn't hold much authority; he seems to play the roll of the commander quite often, more so as the movie progresses. Besides, its not so much that he's a leader; its that he enjoys a position of power and respect. This seems evident in a very early scene in Star Wars: A New Hope, when he chokes that guy for questioning his power (or some such thing). Vader doesn't take no shit. Furthermore, he demands absolute obediance from those that serve under him. See the 2 or so high ranking imperials he choked in the Empire Strikes Back for that.

Alex on the other hand, pretty much seems to be into it for the fun of violence. I guess he has a limited lust for power; he is the leader of the little group. But it doesn't seem as important to him as just beating people up and raping women (young and old). I wouldn't expect Alex to be a high ranking member (even if he is a lapdog) of some huge Empire. If he were a dark jedi, he'd be the one who goes on a rampage across the galaxy, just generally being the biggest asshole around. Then, he'd get bored, raise a family, and use his force lightning to entertain the toddlers.

I don't know anything about the other characters you mentioned, but sure, other people could become vader too... provided they had qualities similar to anakin's: a lust for power and a reckless nature.

[civilian_number_two]

Rory I know we just disagree here, but what I'm getting at is that AOTC DOES show that Anakin will be a bad guy; it just DOESN'T show that the bad guy he will become is Vader.

Darth Vader is not reckless. He's very deliberate, and focused, and ruthless. Killing your subordinates when they fail you is evil, but it's not like killing everyone in an entire tribe because your mom died. And why did he do it? He was obsessed with defeating the rebels, and with finding Luke. He had a purpose, and it wasn't even revenge, or anger. He just wanted to make sure the guy he had in command was motivated to get the job done. Evil, ruthless, and stupid, but not reckless, not arrogant, and not snivelling or whiny neither.

I agree Alex isn't Darth Vader. I do believe he could grow up into DV however. Again, a guy like Anakin is more likely in my mind to grow up into Adam Sandler from PUNCH DRUNK LOVE.

[Rory]

Ah, yes I see what you are saying. And I do agree somewhat. All we have really seen in the prequels so far is the beggining of Anakin's turn to the darkside, not his transformation into Vader. We can only hope we see that in the 3rd movie, which is where I believe it belongs anyway. He does seem to show a desire for power, however, something he and Vader definetly seem to share. Aside from the whining, its not too hard to imagine him becoming Vader.

I can only imagine (or at least hope) that the final steps of Anakin turning to the darkside and becoming Darth Vader are pretty earthshattering, not just a walk in the park or what have you. Therefore, I wouldn't expect to see too much of Vader in Anakin right now; he has yet to suffer through the climactic events that turn him into Darth Vader.

[Jordan]

of Paul Bettany in GANGSTER NO 1 (which I know at least Jordan will run out and see, since he works in a video store, right Jordan?).

It's funny you mention Gangster NO.1. It's our most popular RESTRICTED movie, next to EROTICA. My buddy at work is always nagging on me to take both of those home.

Lucas tries to juggle too many events at once in the PT's ( introducing new characters every other scene, stupid gum shoe mysteries that could be solved by Nate the Great, Senate hearings etcc.) Therefore he can't, thus far, sell a convincing Anakin with Vader appeal.

TPM showed us how nice he was as a 9 year old boy, like most 9 year old boys are, and AOTC showed us a disgruntled teen- not unlike every teenage boy in
North America.

Anakin murdering an entire village was a crime of passion. It was quasi-justified in a flimsy way. Why couldn't Lucas just have shown Anakin lose his temper over somthing more trivial and then kill an entire village? I think that would have been more appropriate. I'm sure everyone here would say that killing an entire village is bad no matter what. But I'm also sure that everyone here would also under breather mutter that it is kind of justified since they did torture and kill his mother. So we can kind of relate. It steals his raw evil.

He did not devote the time to Anakin's character. If he started the PT with Anakin in his late teens, things would've been better. He could have been troubled from the start. A street kid or petty crook. Lucas could have then used OB1 and Padme to further help develop his chracter with a series of up and down moments between them and Anakin.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 25 August 2004 - 01:27 AM

[Helena]

Anakin murdering an entire village was a crime of passion.  It was quasi-justified in a flimsy way.  Why couldn't Lucas just have shown Anakin lose his temper over somthing more trivial and then kill an entire village?  I think that would have been more appropriate.  I'm sure everyone here would say that killing an entire village is bad no matter what. But I'm also sure that everyone here would also under breather mutter that it is kind of justified since they did torture and kill his mother. So we can kind of relate.  It steals his raw evil.

Nope. I don't see it as justified in any way whatsoever, and I find it hard to believe that anyone else could. The 'entire village' did not murder Anakin's mother, unless you believe that all of them - small children included - took part in some kind of ritual killing. There is just no excuse for what Anakin does, and that's why I find it so amazing that Lucas actually does try to quasi-justify it.

Like Civ says, Vader in the original movies was a calm, calculating villian who killed for a purpose, not in a blind fit of uncntrollable rage. Showing Anakin losing his temper over even more trivial matters would make things even worse.

As for him being similar to most North American teenagers, if that's the case then I'm very glad I don't live in North America. I have known people as irritating as Anakin, but most of them were under 12, not 19.

[Jordan]

As for him being similar to most North American teenagers, if that's the case then I'm very glad I don't live in North America. I have known people as irritating as Anakin, but most of them were under 12, not 19.

He whines.

He's Horny.

He does not like people telling him what to do.


Vader material!

[Just your average movie goer]

Helena, you are so right about people who are like Anakin being under 12.

I just noticed something however... I think we scared our guest Jariten away.

Pity, I was hoping that we could save him from the dellusion of passable prequels.

[Despondent]

He was doing great until his hard-fought, six-episode story-arc argument met betrayal by the god of possibilities' threat of potential sequels.

Still, he's got a lot of spirit.

[jariten]

im still here! and my hope that the sequels dont get made stems from my love of the prequels/ star wars in general.

actually, i dont think i`ll be able to post as much from now on, but i`m going to try. someone fighting for the other side always makes these things more fun, dont you think?

Why couldn't Lucas just have shown Anakin lose his temper over somthing more trivial and then kill an entire village?

presumably because we need to see an uncontrolled burst of anger from anakin thats totally fueled by passion/anguish/confusion/misery/grief etc. which seems to be a hallmarl of the darkside (what Anakin does is exactly what Luke does in episode 6, what Palpatine wants him to do. Remember where Vader is on the floor begging and Luke has totally lost control), as opposed to the much much more restrained Jedi. the power that obi wan kept bottled up needed to find vent in something really explosive and im not sure anything less trivial wouldve cut it.

[Just your average movie goer]

Agreed. But I can't believe someone from my side said that quote...

Come on, guys! We need to show some solidarity in our thinking! Of course Anakin needs something very serious to start his journey to the dark side, because despite how Lucas made him in the prequels, remember that originally he was supposed to be a good guy.

And Jariten, it's good to see you're still here and still fighting. You've got a lot of spirit, as Despondent said.

[Jordan]

Why? Just make him evil. He likes to do bad. It's that easy. Why make this complicated character? SInce we know what's going to happen- a character torn between right&wrong, emotions, love.. it's all bs.

I use to think that having an emotionaly twisted character would work. But it wouldn't anymore I think. We know the future, I think that alone hurt the films potential. Everything will be "well no shit sherlock"

Just the very way SW is shot. The filters they use on the cameras, the frame rate, settings etc... It will goofy or watered down if you try make a dramatic storyline with Anakin being this good guy that is drawn to evil.


I just watched Gangster No. 1. The main protagonist was just a psychopath who wanted power. (I thought he was gay after getting mad at Freddy for talking to that attractive female in the bar) Anyway. Bonjour.

[Helena]

Why? Just make him evil.  He likes to do bad. It's that easy.  Why make this complicated character? SInce we know what's going to happen- a character torn between right&wrong, emotions, love.. it's all bs. 

I use to think that having an emotionaly twisted character would work. But it wouldn't anymore I think. We know the future, I think that alone hurt the films potential. Everything will be "well no shit sherlock"

Just the very way SW is shot. The filters they use on the cameras, the frame rate, settings etc... It will goofy or watered down if you try make a dramatic storyline with Anakin being this good guy that is drawn to evil. 

Why? The OT makes clear that this is precisely what he was - a good guy that was drawn to evil. Plenty of other films manage to portray this convincingly. The Prequels could too if Lucas was a better writer.

My God, I agree with jariten on something