[Chefelf]

The Jehovah's Witnesses have been visiting me regularly for about two years now. I'm not going to sit here and make fun of them. That would be too obvious. I could just say something lame and predictable like: "Those damn Jehovahs! They always come over when you don't want them to come over! HAR! HAR! HAR! HAR!" I'm not going to do that.

I enjoy the Jehovah's witness guy. He just stopped by mere moments ago and we had, as we always do, a really pleasant chat. I like talking to the Jehovah's Witness guy. He's a really educated guy. He has interesting things to say and we are always able to talk about politics and current events. We're pretty much on the same page except for one small detail: I will never believe what he believes. There's no chance of it. No matter how much he talks about it, it just isn't going to happen.

One thing that particularly surprised me today was that he mentioned Jesus's brothers and sisters. Wow. I had no idea that the Jehovah's Witnesses believed in that. It's amazing to me that the Jehovahs--who are the butt of so many jokes--can be so much more progressive than other Christian Religions.

So, in short, it is fun talking about the War in Iraq and Adolph Hitler with some strange, mustachioed man that comes to my door once a month. I hope these days last forever!

[sinister grinner]

is he mario. we have a dude at the tastey freeze who would try to preach to the whole dam block. they took him away for several years but he's back now.

" you make the lord very nervous."

[civilian_number_two]

One thing that particularly surprised me today was that he mentioned Jesus's brothers and sisters. Wow. I had no idea that the Jehovah's Witnesses believed in that. It's amazing to me that the Jehovahs--who are the butt of so many jokes--can be so much more progressive than other Christian Religions.

So, in short, it is fun talking about the War in Iraq and Adolph Hitler with some strange, mustachioed man that comes to my door once a month. I hope these days last forever!

Hmm.

As far as I know, there's no mention of Jesus having any sisters, but he did have brothers (Mark 3:31-34; cited in Matt 13:46-50; Luke 8:19-21). Also, the fellow responsible for the epistle of James is believed to have been one of Jesus's brothers. The mainstream Christian community has no trouble with believing that Jesus had brothers. The only resistance to that idea comes from the Catholics, who in the middle ages invented a notion that Mary had remained a virgin her whole life, despite having married and never having been told that she should not have more children. They also believe that she was taken directly to heaven without having died, just like Elijah. They made this one up fairly recently; I think it was in the 17th century. It's all part of that whole weird Catholic thing.

I used to have JWs come to my door as well, and they would talk to me and offer me their magazines. I learned that if you want them to return you have to take the magazine, since they're basically on the spot to unload them. See, they buy them from the church, and this is the sourse of its jillion-dollar annual income. Rank-and-file members buying stacks of magazines and distributing them at their own expense, on top of the usual tithing.

I was in a place in those days where I liked to talk with strangers about their different beliefs, so I would take the magazines and never read them (the writing is terrible), but would always talk to them about their primary source, the Bible, since I knew something about that. It was in these discussions I formed an opinion about their restrictive cult. Of course, I should mention that I am an atheist, so I don't cotton to no church that asks people to "disfellowship" their parents and siblings should they happen to hold different beliefs. Add to which the demonizing of birthdays and Christmas along with the refusal to accept basic medical help (blood) in emergencies is plain dumb.

One thing I noticed is that when they come to your door, if one of the two is a rookie, that person will stand on your left. I enjoyed addressing my skepticism to that person, since that was the one that did the least talking. One day I noticed that the lady that had once stood to the left was gone, and I was facing a man on the right, and the original lady who had been on my right was now on my left. The man seemed obviously to know a lot more, and we talked a good while, but this time I was addressing all of my questions while looking at the woman now on the left. It was the man who did all of the answering. The next time I got that knock on my door, the woman was gone. Instead it was two men, with the more experienced man from the last meeting now on my left, and a new man on the right. He was obvioulsy one of the elders, and was very insistent that I sign up for a Bible study and join them at their Kingdom Hall.

I had gone as far as I could go. Since I was never going to sign up for such a thing, I declined, and never saw them again. My feeling is that if you do not promise your man that you will come to his church (one day, he will ask), then he will be expected (that is, his church will expect it of him) to move on and forsake you.

Mike.

[looktothesky]

My Philosophy teacher in Highschool (who is a Priest) told us that the best method of getting them away from your house is to throw holy water at them.

[Reader]

You should always listen to your priest!

[civilian_number_two]

My Philosophy teacher in Highschool (who is a Priest) told us that the best method of getting them away from your house is to throw holy water at them.

Doesn't sound like much of a priest, if he's advocating assault to scare off members of rival cults. At least, not much of a modern priest, though I guess he might have fit in well in the middle ages.

I can make my own water, and I'm sure if I threw that at people who came to my door, they'd leave as well. But I'm also sure that wasn't the point of Chefelf's message.

Mike.

PS: Nate, when you talk to this guy, is he creating some sort of analogy between Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler? Or is it you doing that? Because whichever of you it is, you're way off. Saddam's got nothing on Hitler, and will likely have little effect on world history. George W, on the other hand, is poised to alter the way everyone in the world sees the United States for at least 100 years. I'm pretty sure that when people all over the Middle east and Africa - and lots of Europe - think if the US, they experience the same shudder that Americans do when they think of Russia, and that all Europeans do when they think of Germany.

Not to get too far off topic.

[looktothesky]

Doesn't sound like much of a priest, if he's advocating assault to scare off members of rival cults. At least, not much of a modern priest, though I guess he might have fit in well in the middle ages.

You're taking it too seriously, I guess Preists can't joke anymore either...

[Supes]

I've also had some exposure to regular visiting JWs at my old house. There was a husband and wife team that used to work our neighbourhood about once every two months. Much like Nate and civilian I was happy to chat with them about their faith and world affairs. I had to end the chats when they began to get a little to pushy and basically told me that I did not believe in the holy trinity.

I am a Christian, but I do not attend church. Unfortunately, I have tended to find that in the end all the churches I've attended preached intolerance for other religions and beliefs. Personally, I have no time for this perspective at all as it really does go against the basic teachings that I believe. We are all free willed individuals and have the right ot choose our own belief systems and it is not my place or anyone else’s to tell you differently.

Unfortunately my JW friends took things a little to far when they started to tell me that my beliefs were wrong and that I did not actually believe in the things that I stated my support for. The problem I had was that their only argument for my lack of belief was that it did not fit within their own belief system and therefore I had to be wrong. It then became essential for me to attend one of the meetings in order for me to be show just how wrong I was.

It was at this point I had to ask them to leave and not return.

I can't tolerate intolerance

[Jordan]

I to am a Christian that does not attend church.

I find the churches I went to were mere social clubs, or places for people to go so they could feel like " good pious" individuals.

I listen to cermones from my cpu www.ttb.org is the site of Dr. J Vernon Mcgee, one of the best pastors I have ever heard. Actually he is the best in my opinion.

I also study christian apolegetics with Hank Hanigraff. www.equip.org

I find that the churches here in Vancouver fall into pop culture idealisim. They stray from the bible and adopt humanistic view points.

Intolerance? Christ was very intolerant.

You don't have to agree with other religons, but at the same time you don't have to support them.

As far as me not attending church, there probably are a couple here worth while, I just have not found them yet

[civilian_number_two]

Jordan,

I figure a Christian (or person of any religion) that does not attend services is not comfortable with his chosen faith. Why choose not to be in community with fellow believers? Could they really all be as pretentious as you think they are? Or is it possible that the things they believe are just a little embarrassing? "To see ourselves as others see us ... "


Supes,

I totally get that you don't want to attend Christian churches if your version of the faith does not incorporate the Holy Trinity. That's so central a dogma that you might as well be said to have a religion of your own choosing that is not literally Christian. Good for you; the Trinity is not very strong. It took more than 100 yeras to hammer it into the creed, so it's pretty clear that there isn't a lot of text support. I think Christianity would make a lot more sense if the Trinity wasn't a part of it. But then there's the business of God "making" Jesus. No way, man. "Begotten, not made, one in being with the Father ..." "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with god, and the Word was God ..." This is the sort of nonsense they had religious conferences about in the early days. And it's not like they held these conferences at lus resorts in Vegas; these talks were real work.



My biggest disagreement with the JWs who came to my home was over a cover article of one of the Watchtower magazines they left with me. The cover story was titled "Why So Many Runaways?" I asked them if they really felt like this was a problem, adding that I'd never eard of anyone I knew ever having a relative who ran away from home. The guy believed that the teen runaway problem was a serious one. I told him I suspected that his church was either terrible and oppressive and that it drove children to flee the home, or, more likely, his church was busy at exaggerating statistics and engaging in fearmongering. I told him that since the JW church always predicted that we were in the End Times because there were more earthquakes and floods now than ever before (in all of history), that I was sure the fearmongering angle was the one to take.

Since then, of course, I have met a few former JWs who have been "disfellowshipped" for deciding not to follow the church. Maybe these people, since they never speak top their parents (they wouldn't be allowed to) are considered "runaways." So maybe my JW was right.

[sinister grinner]

about throwing holy water at them, you could probably sell it to them. you could just sell them tap water in ammonia bottles, or my preacher said that holy water is tap water. than when you use it to baptize someone, it becomes holy water. so sneak some off after a baptism, and you could sell it to them. And no im not a baptist. methodist.

[Amber-Nicole]

I'm....Agnostic! (Dun dun dunnnnnn!)


Most Christians....just kind of pissed me off. They finally got to me, and I needed to just...NOT associate myself with them. I'm n fanatic. I believe there could be a higher power or something, but I really don't have time to worry about it right now. And It pisses me off how Christians believe their religion is the only true way. What about people in other countries that have never even heard of Christianity? My friends always told me those people when to Hell. Because everyone knows God is suuuch and asshole and is going to send people to hell for ignorance! I also believe that Christianity has as big of a chance of being the wrong religion as any other. Who is to say it's the right way? Or maybe they're all right. Maybe your afterlife is directly connected to what you believe...erm.... I'm rambling. Anyway...

[Supes]

Jordan,

I figure a Christian (or person of any religion) that does not attend services is not comfortable with his chosen faith. Why choose not to be in community with fellow believers? Could they really all be as pretentious as you think they are? Or is it possible that the things they believe are just a little embarrassing? "To see ourselves as others see us ... "

I can't speak for anyone else, but it's not really that way for me personally. At the base element I see my religion about being a relationship with God. It is a very personal thing and should be the main objective within your belief system. Whether other people agree with me or not is really irrelvant. What I should not be doing is telling anyone else that I am right and they are wrong. This really is not my place - and it really comes down to belief. As you mentioned, with all the dogmatic aspects of religion these days it is really hard to determine what the real message may have been from the start. Most people are aware how the catholic church has changed it rituals etc to "bring into the fold" so to speak other cultures and convert them (this is merely an example and by no means is an attempt to disparage the catholic church) to the catholic religion. At the base of it, however, is the intent to perpetuate the core beliefs. I don't have a great deal of time for evangelism, I would prefer to believe what I believe, have discussionswhen people open them and feel free in the choice that I have made.

Having said this it is obvious to me from my own points that if someone wishes a chicken to be thier deity and they believe in the divinity of this chicken then they are no less right or wrong than I am. And this is my point. They have every right to their belief. We can debate the relative pros and cons of our beliefs, but on the whole that is what they are...beliefs!

I agree that in part some people may be embarrassed by the actions or statements of others - I know I have, especially when my old minister got up and told everyone that we should not tolerate the exisitance of other religions. I felt really embarrased then, because to me this did not comply with the basic element of the belief that we shared. It had nothing to do with being embarrassed about my faith, but the realisation that the faith we shared still resulted in a different belief set that was driven by this faith.

It appears that I have also begun rambling, so will stop there. I hope that I have made some sense, but it can be quite difficult to translate faith to electronic media and I may not be the best person to try to articulate this either

[civilian_number_two]

Having said this it is obvious to me from my own points that if someone wishes a chicken to be thier deity and they believe in the divinity of this chicken then they are no less right or wrong than I am. And this is my point. They have every right to their belief. We can debate the relative pros and cons of our beliefs, but on the whole that is what they are...beliefs!

Well sure. I have an incredibly hard time with this, however. See: To say that a person KNOWS something, it is required that
a ) he believe the thing to be true;
b ) he has some justification for his belief (ie he has some evidence; it is not a guess); and
c ) the thing must actually be true.

To say that a person BELIEVES something, it is only required that
a ) for whatever reason, he does not accept the possibility that it may not be true.

Because if he accepts this possibility, then he has doubt. It is not reasonable to say, "I believe in God, but I doubt he exists." The thing I have always had a hard time dealing with is that so many people believe in God; that is, they do not accept the possibility that there is no such thing as an invisible superhero who lives in outer space and who created the whole world and who loves me personally and who occasionally cures diseases and noone will ever see him unless they're really good and then only if they die first. Also he wants me to kill fags. It's just as big a concept to swallow as your divine chicken example, and I need more evidence than "a bunch of people say so" to get me on board.

I too would have been embarrassed, but not surprised by your pastor's attitude regarding other faiths. Again, a belief system cannot allow for contradiction. It doesn't hold that I accept that I could be wrong; if it does, then I do not BELIEVE what I say I do. And Christianity is not a bloodline religion. If you believe, you gotta deny the other guys their beliefs, and then ... convert them. Christianity is one of the modern religions, with marketing and referral bonuses. Convert three heathen, win a toaster. If you can't convert ... subvert. Paul was good at making Roman stuff into Christian stuff, and the early church fathers followed suit, changing Roman holidays into Christian ones and building churches on top of holy sites. And of course, killing rival cult leaders, but those were differnt times and I wouldn't judge modern religions by ancient values.

On the same hand, however, there are some pretty outrageous claims being made in these books written by this barely-scientific people. Since we can't even get the Kennedy assassination straight, I'm gonna reserve judgement on events twenty centuries gone. I can't believe them.

[Jordan]

i totally forgot about this post

I figure a Christian (or person of any religion) that does not attend services is not comfortable with his chosen faith. Why choose not to be in community with fellow believers? Could they really all be as pretentious as you think they are? Or is it possible that the things they believe are just a little embarrassing? "To see ourselves as others see us ... "

I don't have a car so I cannot travel too far to go to church. The ones with in walking,busing distance I do not like. Why? because no one excepted me into the church, I did not get a hello, goodbye, wanna go for a cup of coffee, Wanna hit up prayer meeting with my friends and I, nothing...

Maybe I could have been more agressive. Since christianity is just a one on one relationship with Christ I'm not worried about my salvation or anthing of that sort. However it is good to be in fellowship with others, 2 logs burn brighter then 1.

I am very comfortable with my faith. I believe the bible to preach the truth and I have no doubts that it is the infalliable word of God.

And It pisses me off how Christians believe their religion is the only true way

Christ makes many claims that he is the only path to God. Christianity contradicts every other worldly religon. Christ told us to be the salt and light of the earth, live in the world, but don't be a part of it. People hate us because we believe in an absolute moral standard. Where as society likes to think everything is relative to the individual. People wanna have their cake and eat it too.

If christians try make you feel like a bad person, then that is not right. Bible said we all fell short of the glory of God, Therefore are all sinners and are all damed. As christians we believe we are saved through the sacrifice of christ on the cross. We are still bad people too, but we strive to do Gods will, and feel convicted if we don't.

Don't judge christianity by the bad apples. Challenge the bible yourself then make a decision. Search for answers and don't blindly except anything.