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Goodbye Star Wars.

#31 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 05:46 PM

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Jul 30 2004, 11:33 PM)


Star Wars became terminally ill in 1997 with some very troubling symptoms including a CGI Jabba the Hutt and Greedo-shooting-first syndrome.  We thought perhaps with the new DVD release in September, these symptons may have disappeared... but Star Wars' troubles only got worse.  With Temeura Morrison dubbing the voices of all the stormtroopers, Star Wars passed away.

Goodbye Star Wars.  You were a breathtaking cinema escapade that awoke the spirit of fun and adventure in all of us.  We will miss you.


The Empire Strikes Back began to show terrible ailments in 1997 with Luke screaming as he fell down the giant exhaust tunnel in Cloud City and Darth Vader arriving on his Star Destroyer in the middle of another scene, cutting it in two.  While these seemed to be fairly mild, the movie has detoriorated rapidly and now, with the new DVD release coming, The Empire Strikes Back is now deceased, due to terrible new dialogue from Ian McDiarmind and an awful dubbing job, once again due to Temeura Morrison.

Goodbye The Empire Strikes Back.  You were the greatest sequel ever made and one of the most incredible movies of all-time.  You transcended your genre.  We will miss you too.


Return of the Jedi has suffered the worst, having the dreaded Hayden Christiansen inserted into its final sequence.  Obviously, this wound was fatal but we can be thankful that death came quickly to Return of the Jedi and was not slow and lingering.

Goodbye Return of the Jedi.  True you had ewoks, many wasted opportunities, retreaded old ground, you were dull and uninspiring and really let your predecessors down... but you had a incredibly well choreographed space battle and an amazing climactic showdown between Luke and Darth Vader so we will miss you too.


Star Wars, the true Star Wars, is really not dead, so long as we remember it and continue to circulate copies of it as it originally appeared in the years of 1977, 1980 and 1983, respectively. So long as we have those copies, it will never be truly dead.

Remember, nothing's forgotten. Nothing's ever forgotten.
I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#32 User is offline   The Scornful Roman Icon

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 10:35 PM

use the force wrote:

you guys are acting like uber nerds complaining about small details that do not interfere with the plot." wa wa wa george lucas raped my childhood" grow up and stop whining like little bitches.

You have no right to flame us with that sort of language; it will never win you friends on any forum. We are NOT 'little bitches' or 'uber nerds' (nice insults, BTW); we are merely long-time SW fans (well, most of us, as I can gather) who have grown up loving the original trilogy, in its original state, and hate the thought of it being lost, forever.

I, personally, became a SW fan in 1997; I saw the Special Edition Trilogy on the big screen with my parents and was enthralled with it. For that reason, I can't hate it as much as others on this forum do. But I do think that Lucas' descision to never release the ORIGINAL 70's and 80's theatrical versions of the films onto DVD is WRONG, plain and simple.

Why? Because the original Trilogy (not the Special Editions of either 1997 or 2004) were the ones that won the awards. They were the ones that first made film history. They were the ones that engraved the Star Wars name into pop culture forever.

And you know what? They're still good, even if the starships are models on wires, instead of being created out of the latest CGI razzle-dazzle (which will, I assure you, look like nothing so much as a CARTOON in a few short years).

I love movies from the 70's and 80's. To me, they have a certain magical quality that is hard to define. Perhaps it is in their very REALITY-- no CGI effects. The original Star Wars is one of those things.

Think of it like this: What if the Original Star Trek was released on DVD, finally, after decades of just being on laserdisc and VHS... You bought it and opened it up and popped it into your DVD player, ready to relive the happy memories and moments in your youth when you first watched it...

And to your horror, you found that the Enterprise was gone. In its place was a flashy CGI-ed starship that neither looked nor moved like the original-- it could do barrel-rolls, and shot rainbow-colored lasers! Dialogue had been dubbed over or removed entirely, to help fit the show's continuity in with its prequel, Enterprise,, the original Gorn, once a man in a rubber suit, had been replaced with a CGI lizard-man, and a Worf lookalike had been digitally inserted into all of the scenes with the Klingons, so that there would be 'continuity' between the Original Series and the Next Generation...

And this was the ONLY version of Star Trek that you would ever get on DVD, EVER. New fans wouldn't be able to see the ground-breaking series as it was originally aired, unless they stayed up all night, hunting for re-runs, and old fans wouldn't be able to sit down comfortably and enjoy the original series that they had loved so much. No, it would be gone, changed into something else.

Think of future generations never being able to see "Citizen Kane" or "The Godfather" or "Alien" or any other famous, well-loved film that you care to name, in their original, award-winning, well-loved forms. Think of someone taking their computer technology-- the latest, mind, but in a few years it'll look cartoonish and obsolete-- and taking these films and altering them, and then releasing them on the latest home-video format with the basic message of, "Be happy, folks, 'cause THIS is all you're ever gonna get!" Think of "Alien" with a CGI starship, a new and improved CGI alien, and a new and improved CGI death scene for John Hurt. Think of "The Godfather 2" with young Marlon Brando superimposed over Robert De Niro, or conversely, "The Godfather" with older Robert De Niro superimposed over Marlon Brando. All for the sake of continuity. And also no alternative.

Of course, these examples are absurd, in that the directors of these films would not do this, and their fan base would be mighty unpleased if they went insane and somehow did. Not to mention the film critics, who enjoyed the original releases of these works AT THE TIME THAT THEY WERE RELEASED...

This is a purely hypothetical situation, but it is what we are facing with Star Wars. A classic series of films that made motion picture history may someday be lost forever. VHS tapes will wear out and degrade, laserdisc players will eventually break down. The old rolls of film may well degrade so much that they will be unplayable and perhaps unrestorable. Films that made history-- not just in the box office, but in individual lives and in people's minds and hearts-- will be gone.

Do you understand the importance of this?
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#33 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 11:19 PM

I applaud you, Scornful Roman. While any logical argument would be wasted on the likes of someone such as Use The Force, that was none-the-less, the most important post that has ever appeared on this forum.

Yes, this is a sad day for cinema. The prequels, while they are bad, are nothing compared to this. We can disgard the prequels. However, we cannot discard the fact that the original Star Wars that we all knew and loved, has been virtually eradicated - never be available again in any format, DVD or video.

I guess what bothers me about people like Use The Force is the complete lack of understanding. It's high times for people like him - Star Wars is being completely altered to cater to his fourteen year old tastes. Meanwhile, loyal fans like us are being spat at in the face. And our only words of consolidation from Lucas are "Tough luck, guys."

Yes, Lucas may be entitled to do what he pleases with Star Wars (although because it was a collaborative project of great stading in cinema history, I personally believe he has no right to eradicate the original versions). However, as the fans who were shafted after years of loyalty, I think we're entitled to be bitter about that. We have the right, and a damn good reason, to have a bitch about this.
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#34 User is offline   The Scornful Roman Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 12:37 AM

Lucas has made it so that we CANNOT disregard the prequels. If we happen to dislike Hayden Christiansen as Anakin... well, tough luck, 'cause if you buy the SW DVDs, you're gonna see him at the end of Return of the Jedi, whether you like it or not. I think that in effect, Lucas is forcing his long-time fans to accept the prequels, by making sure that with the older versions unavailable on the latest, nicest home-video medium, all they will have if their VHS tapes are wearing out and if their laserdiscs are scratched, the 2004 SEs are all there is, commercially.

The next-to-saddest thing, besides the fact that a piece of film history is going to be lost someday, is that future generations will be unable to see the work that went into the little things like the model ships. Perhaps this sounds strange, but the model ships in, say, Alien, for example, are highly detailed; the Nostromo is a true work of art. What if it were to be replaced with a CGI-ed ship? I heard on the Aliens Special Edition DVD that it took all night, I believe, for work on some of the models to be done; the crew labored long and hard to make sure that they looked just right. No doubt that the modelmakers on Star Wars worked as hard; should the fruits of their labor be erased so cavalierly? These are the people who worked with Lucas from the beginning; who supported and gave life to something that very well could have never succeeded.

The original Star Wars' importance goes beyond this, however, to another sci-fi film that came out a couple years later. Alien was greenlighted because of Star Wars, and it owes some of its style (if not its themes) to Star Wars; the gritty, lived-in, practical feel of the Nostromo echoes that of the Millenium Falcon, and the 'just tryin' to make a buck' attitude of the crew is similar in some ways to Han Solo's own hard-headed practicality.

So you see, Star Wars was a great influence on the other big sci-ci film of the late 70's. Both had eager patrons lined up around the blocks-- literally-- to see them. But it was Star Wars that influenced Alien, not the other way around. Shouldn't the memory of that influence-- the 'prime mover', so to speak, be preserved as a pop culture icon and American treasure?
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#35 User is offline   use the force Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 01:14 AM

QUOTE (The Scornful Roman @ Jan 1 2005, 10:35 PM)
use the force wrote:

you guys are acting like uber nerds complaining about small details that do not interfere with the plot." wa wa wa george lucas raped my childhood" grow up and stop whining like little bitches.

You have no right to flame us with that sort of language; it will never win you friends on any forum. We are NOT 'little bitches' or 'uber nerds' (nice insults, BTW); we are merely long-time SW fans (well, most of us, as I can gather) who have grown up loving the original trilogy, in its original state, and hate the thought of it being lost, forever.

I, personally, became a SW fan in 1997; I saw the Special Edition Trilogy on the big screen with my parents and was enthralled with it. For that reason, I can't hate it as much as others on this forum do. But I do think that Lucas' descision to never release the ORIGINAL 70's and 80's theatrical versions of the films onto DVD is WRONG, plain and simple.

Why? Because the original Trilogy (not the Special Editions of either 1997 or 2004) were the ones that won the awards. They were the ones that first made film history. They were the ones that engraved the Star Wars name into pop culture forever.

And you know what? They're still good, even if the starships are models on wires, instead of being created out of the latest CGI razzle-dazzle (which will, I assure you, look like nothing so much as a CARTOON in a few short years).

I love movies from the 70's and 80's. To me, they have a certain magical quality that is hard to define. Perhaps it is in their very REALITY-- no CGI effects. The original Star Wars is one of those things.

Think of it like this: What if the Original Star Trek was released on DVD, finally, after decades of just being on laserdisc and VHS... You bought it and opened it up and popped it into your DVD player, ready to relive the happy memories and moments in your youth when you first watched it...

And to your horror, you found that the Enterprise was gone. In its place was a flashy CGI-ed starship that neither looked nor moved like the original-- it could do barrel-rolls, and shot rainbow-colored lasers! Dialogue had been dubbed over or removed entirely, to help fit the show's continuity in with its prequel, Enterprise,, the original Gorn, once a man in a rubber suit, had been replaced with a CGI lizard-man, and a Worf lookalike had been digitally inserted into all of the scenes with the Klingons, so that there would be 'continuity' between the Original Series and the Next Generation...

And this was the ONLY version of Star Trek that you would ever get on DVD, EVER. New fans wouldn't be able to see the ground-breaking series as it was originally aired, unless they stayed up all night, hunting for re-runs, and old fans wouldn't be able to sit down comfortably and enjoy the original series that they had loved so much. No, it would be gone, changed into something else.

Think of future generations never being able to see "Citizen Kane" or "The Godfather" or "Alien" or any other famous, well-loved film that you care to name, in their original, award-winning, well-loved forms. Think of someone taking their computer technology-- the latest, mind, but in a few years it'll look cartoonish and obsolete-- and taking these films and altering them, and then releasing them on the latest home-video format with the basic message of, "Be happy, folks, 'cause THIS is all you're ever gonna get!" Think of "Alien" with a CGI starship, a new and improved CGI alien, and a new and improved CGI death scene for John Hurt. Think of "The Godfather 2" with young Marlon Brando superimposed over Robert De Niro, or conversely, "The Godfather" with older Robert De Niro superimposed over Marlon Brando. All for the sake of continuity. And also no alternative.

Of course, these examples are absurd, in that the directors of these films would not do this, and their fan base would be mighty unpleased if they went insane and somehow did. Not to mention the film critics, who enjoyed the original releases of these works AT THE TIME THAT THEY WERE RELEASED...

This is a purely hypothetical situation, but it is what we are facing with Star Wars. A classic series of films that made motion picture history may someday be lost forever. VHS tapes will wear out and degrade, laserdisc players will eventually break down. The old rolls of film may well degrade so much that they will be unplayable and perhaps unrestorable. Films that made history-- not just in the box office, but in individual lives and in people's minds and hearts-- will be gone.

Do you understand the importance of this?




Which confirms my point, that people who type up something like that...is a uber nerd/ whiny bitch. smile.gif
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#36 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 01:25 AM

Why would you bother select all that writing and stick it in a quote box, then sum up with 1 sentence which only insults the writer?

I might as well call you a loser since you waste your time talking to uber nerds who whine.

If we're the nerds, then you're the loser who feeds off of us nerds. Whose worse?
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#37 User is offline   Supes Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 02:05 AM

QUOTE (use the force @ Jan 2 2005, 01:14 AM)
Which confirms my point, that people who type up something like that...is a uber nerd/ whiny bitch. smile.gif


I have a question for you "use the force". If what Lucas has done makes so much sense. If the additions and changes do show a logical progression and tie in with what was in the OT, why does he replace a YOUNG Anakin’s ghost while Obi-Wan and Yoda remain old. Where the hell is the continuity in this particular action?

BTW - I will not accept the answer, that he is shown young because this his him prior to being consumed by the dark side, like some other twat tried to tell me. If Vader was redeemed then his redemption came with old age also and he still should have appeared as an older man.

Please explain to me in, your infinite wisdom, how this change makes any sense whatsoever. Like I said in another post to you. If you're going to make an argument let's see something that corroborates your sentiments. Otherwise, you're just another Troll on a message board.
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#38 User is offline   The Scornful Roman Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 10:58 AM

Which confirms my point, that people who type up something like that...is a uber nerd/ whiny bitch. smile.gif

Cheap shot, use the force. I've got a good question for you: WHAT EXACTLY ABOUT MY POT MAKES ME A "WHINY BITCH?" You've gone from insulting us collectively to singling me out personally, apparently for the crime of daring to make a logical arguement as to why the theatrical versions of the OT should be preserved for posterity. Please, feel free to make a logical argument as to why they SHOULD NOT be preserved.

You know, when Just Your Average Movie-Goer jumped on you and called you names, I was almost ready to defend you. After all, we have a person here who loves the PT-- jariten. Do we insult her/him? No; we calmly listen and give back a polite, well-reasoned answer. We have a DISCUSSION, not a whining, insult-laden flame-war-- which is what your language has dragged the conversation down to. Or, might I say, what you are trying to do.

You have not apparently listened to anything that I said in my previous post. I argued that the original SW trilogy as it was released in '77, '80, '83, is the one that won our hearts, and is the one that won the awards, and is the one that was such an influence on many other Science-Fiction films, from Alien on up even to the present day. It is a vital piece of pop culture, and a geniune work of art, just as much as, say, The Godfather or Alien or Citizen Kane or Gone With The Wind. Should the original versions of those films be forgotten and eventually destroyed for the sake of some newer, 'more improved' vision? If they should not, then neither should Star Wars.

I do not dispute that Lucas has the right to make the SEs. He does. Many, many directors give 'Director's Cuts' of their work; the Alien Quadrilogy has alternate versions of all four films. In some cases, the Director's Cuts are stronger; in other cases they are merely an alternate version. But the existence of these director's cuts does not shake up and disturb and outrage the Alien fan base, as the Star Wars SEs have done to the Star Wars fanbase. Why? Because the directors of the Alien Director's Cuts have not disowned the original versions (except in the case of David Fincher, but that is a different story). They have not banned the originals from ever seeing the light of day on DVD, and they have not stopped production of the originals on VHS or laserdisc.

The simple fact is that Lucas should have had BOTH versions of the SW trilogy on DVD. There is no excuse for it. And a final question for you, use the force; what if 20 or 30 years down the line Lucas or whoever is in charge of Lucasfilm at that time decides to insert new footage into the Prequel Trilogy, denying the fans of it the right to see the older theatrical versions on the latest, most permanent and convinient home-video format? At the thought of that, are you now so quick to childishly insult us?

I'd welcome an answer... and perhaps an apology.
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#39 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 11:40 AM

QUOTE (Lord Aquaman @ Dec 31 2004, 05:46 PM)
Star Wars, the true Star Wars, is really not dead

so long as we remember, it will never be truly dead.

Remember, nothing's forgotten. Nothing's ever forgotten.


Those lobby posters look fabulous. thanks for posting to you and Movie-goer.





ps, how long will laserdisc system technology continue to operate, so long as there's power?
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#40 User is offline   use the force Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 02:30 PM

QUOTE (The Scornful Roman @ Jan 2 2005, 10:58 AM)
Which confirms my point, that people who type up something like that...is a uber nerd/ whiny bitch.  smile.gif

Cheap shot, use the force. I've got a good question for you: WHAT EXACTLY ABOUT MY POT MAKES ME A "WHINY BITCH?" You've gone from insulting us collectively to singling me out personally, apparently for the crime of daring to make a logical arguement as to why the theatrical versions of the OT should be preserved for posterity. Please, feel free to make a logical argument as to why they SHOULD NOT be preserved.

You know, when Just Your Average Movie-Goer jumped on you and called you names, I was almost ready to defend you. After all, we have a person here who loves the PT-- jariten. Do we insult her/him? No; we calmly listen and give back a polite, well-reasoned answer. We have a DISCUSSION, not a whining, insult-laden flame-war-- which is what your language has dragged the conversation down to. Or, might I say, what you are trying to do.

You have not apparently listened to anything that I said in my previous post. I argued that the original SW trilogy as it was released in '77, '80, '83, is the one that won our hearts, and is the one that won the awards, and is the one that was such an influence on many other Science-Fiction films, from Alien on up even to the present day. It is a vital piece of pop culture, and a geniune work of art, just as much as, say, The Godfather or Alien or Citizen Kane or Gone With The Wind. Should the original versions of those films be forgotten  and eventually destroyed for the sake of some newer, 'more improved' vision? If they should not, then neither should Star Wars.

I do not dispute that Lucas has the right to make the SEs. He does. Many, many directors give 'Director's Cuts' of their work; the Alien Quadrilogy has alternate versions of all four films. In some cases, the Director's Cuts are stronger; in other cases they are merely an alternate version. But the existence of these director's cuts does not shake up and disturb and outrage the Alien fan base, as the Star Wars SEs have done to the Star Wars fanbase. Why? Because the directors of the Alien Director's Cuts have not disowned the original versions (except in the case of David Fincher, but that is a different story). They have not banned the originals from ever seeing the light of day on DVD, and they have not stopped production of the originals on VHS or laserdisc.

The simple fact is that Lucas should have had BOTH versions of the SW trilogy on DVD. There is no excuse for it. And a final question for you, use the force; what if 20 or 30 years down the line Lucas or whoever is in charge of Lucasfilm at that time decides to insert new footage into the Prequel Trilogy, denying the fans of it the right to see the older theatrical versions on the latest, most permanent and convinient home-video format? At the thought of that, are you now so quick to childishly insult us?

I'd welcome an answer... and perhaps an apology.


te only reason that would get me mad about lucas changing the pt if he were to do something drastic. like editing out hayden christensen and putting in jake loyd for the romance with padme. or putting in a clone of palpatine to change the story completely. if he put in a couple aliens in the backround like he has done with the ot i most likely wouldn't even notice therefore i would not care. the only reason im flaming is because jymag thought it was ok to flame me. it went like this

me - yep i think rots will have a sweet lightsaber duel

jymag- u little immature shit for brains your so retarded go back to the force .net

me- you little uber nerd whiny bitch.

everyone- gosh use the force your so immature blah blah blah.
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Posted 02 January 2005 - 05:15 PM

Jesus, are you still here? I thought we already asked you politely to leave; do we really have to resort to flaming you before you get the message? Guys, I think it's time to make use of our 'Ignore User' buttons again.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

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#42 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 06:46 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ Jan 2 2005, 03:15 PM)
Jesus, are you still here? I thought we already asked you politely to leave; do we really have to resort to flaming you before you get the message? Guys, I think it's time to make use of our 'Ignore User' buttons again.


I agree with Helena - we must ban 'Use the Force'.
I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#43 User is offline   use the force Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 06:52 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ Jan 2 2005, 05:15 PM)
Jesus, are you still here? I thought we already asked you politely to leave; do we really have to resort to flaming you before you get the message? Guys, I think it's time to make use of our 'Ignore User' buttons again.




whopps sorry, yep damn lucas for not re releasing the originals. arghhhhh i hate him so much. the pt sucks so much. man those people at tfn are psycho's wacko.gif
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#44 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 07:12 PM

QUOTE
te only reason that would get me mad about lucas changing the pt if he were to do something drastic. like editing out hayden christensen and putting in jake loyd for the romance with padme.


Well how about if they replaced Hayden in JEdi with Jake Lloyd, would that bother you- and why?
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#45 User is offline   The Scornful Roman Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 07:54 PM

QUOTE
the only reason im flaming is because jymag thought it was ok to flame me. it went like this
me - yep i think rots will have a sweet lightsaber duel
jymag- u little immature shit for brains your so retarded go back to the force .net
me- you little uber nerd whiny bitch.
everyone- gosh use the force your so immature blah blah blah.


I saw that, and it wasn't right that J.Y.A.M.G. responded to you like that. But flaming us-- all of us, collectively-- isn't exactly right either. Tarring all of us with the same brush of 'nerds and bitches' isn't fair. I was welcomed personally by the admin when I joined this site, and I have seen other 'newbies' welcomed in the same fashion-- politely. Differing opinions are tolerated, so long as those proclaiming them are polite and respectful.

You didn't just call J.Y.A.M.G. a bad name; you called ALL of us by a bad name, and again you called me the same thing when I first responded to your offending post with my own views on why the OT should be preserved. How do you think that made me feel? How do you think that it made the other people on this board feel?

QUOTE
te only reason that would get me mad about lucas changing the pt if he were to do something drastic. like editing out hayden christensen and putting in jake loyd for the romance with padme. or putting in a clone of palpatine to change the story completely. if he put in a couple aliens in the backround like he has done with the ot i most likely wouldn't even notice therefore i would not care.


Thank you for responding! smile.gif But what if Lucas *did* change the OT in a way that made you angry, and you were unable to get the originals that you enjoyed better on a convenient, long-lasting format for viewing? That's what we are facing with the OT. Hayden Christensen and a shot of Naboo are edited into the ending of ROTJ, which pretty much ruins the plans of those die-hard fans who are trying to ignore the PT; there's altered dialogue in the ESB conversation between the Emperor and Darth Vader (and from what people on here are saying, it is not of the highest quality); and the altered scene of Greedo shooting first waters down Han's character, in many people's opinions.

Essentially, Lucas is saying, by vowing never to release the original OT on DVD, that the movies that millions fell in love with years ago are inferior and incomplete, whereas we look at them and say, "No, they aren't inferior and incomplete. If they were, we wouldn't have liked them so much!"
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