[Despondent]

Well, we know Lucas has a selective memory. Maybe a Jedi is Trained by how he trains others. So in teaching Annie, Obi-wan was trained by Yoda. From a certain point of view (shrug, sigh)

[barend]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

it's getting harder and harder to supress those...
I can't wait for Ep3.

Just get this whole damn thing over and dunn withhh

[Supes]

Obi wan:[to yoda] "was i any younger when you trained me?"
or something like that....

i have'nt watched for years, so correct me if i'm wrong, but Obi wans got very selective memory, as does yoda.

I think the line is, "Was I any different when you taught me?" referring to Yoda's comment that there is much anger in Luke.

The one thing that the PT establishes is that Yoda does train, but it is not in a Padawan/Master type arrangement. We see him training the "younglings" and this is likely where he first trained Obi-Wan. I think it's then left to us to fill in the gaps that potentially Yoda had more to do with the training of Obi-Wan before he was apprenticed to Qui-Gon.

I don't particularly like it as it just creates more gaps and a desire to know more than simply filling in the blanks we all had about what brought about the Empire and the Rebellion.

We see Obi-Wan mentioning Qui-Gon's defiance of the council, but we get no indication of why he has defied them, but NOW we want to know. We don't get to see how it is that Yoda trained Obi-Wan or what their specific relationship is, and this is one of the things we DO want to know.

We see no indication of the reckless, impatient, angry Obi-Wan who developed into the great Jedi. If anything Obi-Wan is the perfect student from all appearences. It really is the selective memory thing I guess. We jsut don't get the answers to the questions that Lucas originally posed in our minds through these sequences of dialogue.

This post has been edited by Supes: 01 July 2004 - 09:52 PM

[barend]

that kindergarden jedi class was a joke!!!

[Supes]

that kindergarden jedi class was a joke!!!

Agreed! I think Lucas was trying to show the training process, it's just that the idea he developed is not appealing and actually detracts from the overall status and awe originally attributed to the Jedi from the OT.

I mean in the PT they are an organisation that takes children from their parents before they even really get to know their parents and place them in this cold harsh environment.

This will only make sense to the Australian readers I imagine, but does the term "Stolen Generation" ring any bells here? I can just see hundreds of Jedi taking their case to the high council for having been forcibly removed from their families potentially never to see them again. How does this serve the greater good? A lesser evil committed to ofset the potential of a greater evil? The Jedi we knew about from the OT would never have brooked this...oh hang on, they were a part of it too.

The entire Jedi order is evil, for, "...once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny..."

[CowboyCurtis]

I'm totally with you on this!!

I had always imagined that the Jedi would train anyone who had Force potential, that wanting to be a Jedi would be a choice. I don't like this idea of all the children in the galaxy of having their midiclorians "tested." It seems totally Nazi-like; and this doesn't seem very "civilized" or "enlightened."

I always thought that Force abilities appear at an early age, i.e. a child telekinetically calls to a toy to himself, or he knows that he/she has precognition, or that they're unusually quick and agile; THESE would be the indicator of a true Jedi, an early sign.


This is why the midi-clorian crap shouldn't be in there. Shouldn't it be the Jedi's who 'pick out' Jedi potentials rather than science? That they sense the presence... a 'disturbance' in the Force, are attracted to it, follow it and then find them? And then it should be the child's choice, or the parents' choice if the kid is really young. This is how it should be!

As for Yoda training... He should NOT be training the younglings to use a lightsaber. I always figured he'd instill the basics, tune the young Jedis to the Force and THEN pass them off to a "martial coach." This is where Count Dooku could've been introduced/mentioned. He could've been a former "martial coach" of Obi-Wan's. And THEN when they are old enough and pass the trials, they become a Jedi and they can go on missions...

I find it absolutely senseless that young padawaans are taken out into the field and trained "on the job." I don't know, it's like a cop taking a kid out on the job with him and eventually training him to be a cop, but what good is it if that kid gets in the way or gets shot, etc.? I mean, really a Jedi trying to do his mission and then wiping a kid's nose at the same time? Nope. Nope. Nope. NO!

Jedi Knights should be already prepared before they go into the field; just like cops do.

[Supes]

I find it absolutely senseless that young padawaans are taken out into the field and trained "on the job." I don't know, it's like a cop taking a kid out on the job with him and eventually training him to be a cop, but what good is it if that kid gets in the way or gets shot, etc.? I mean, really a Jedi trying to do his mission and then wiping a kid's nose at the same time? Nope. Nope. Nope. NO!

Jedi Knights should be already prepared before they go into the field; just like cops do.

I'm not so sure that this is not what is being conveyed in the PT. It is clear that the Academy is a training ground where their skills are developed an thoery is taught. Much like a police force, they say no matter how much training you go through it all goes out the window once you hit the street.

I think the Academy worked on this principle. A padawan was not apprenticed until they had shown sufficient skill to be able to actually "hit the beat" with the older more experience Jedi. You still get rookie cops and I see these as the equivalent of the padawan. They are green in term of field work, but they have been trained up as much as is possible before hittin the streets.

I don't really have an issue with this concept, it's more how they go about selecting the "potential jedi" that bothers me.

[barend]

what potential does a 5 year old show?

it's just stupid... the way they carry on about it all, It means that the good jedi were just dumb!!!

they didn't sense Palpatines darkness, Anikans Darkness, Dokus Darkness, it's just weak!!! they never should have aloowed anikans training... Palpy said he'd keep a close eye on Ani, and i think he was the only bloody one who did...

the Jedi councel deserved to be cut down. If the PT was annything to go by, Then that means that technically the Empire are the good guys by default!!!

[Supes]

what potential does a 5 year old show?

That's what I'm saying. The idea of an acaedmy is not a problem. We have enough of those. It's that they take little children and start "moulding" them into their image that I dislike immensely.

[barend]

they may as well do a matrix type thing and have all the kids on incubators, feeding crap into their minds!!!

[Helena]

It's never actually stated that the kids are forcibly taken away from their parents - I would have thought that the parents' consent was needed, although this should have been made clearer. Presumably they're taken so young to stop them forming emotional bonds with their parents (which can be dangerous, as we see in Anakin's case). As for how the Jedi spot kids' 'potential', aren't they supposed to be able to sense who's strong in the Force just by being near them? There was absolutely no need for all this 'midichlorian testing' crap, or indeed for any mention of Midichlorians at all.

Yoda training the kids with lightsabers is completely stupid, I agree - as is the fact that he does not really train Obi-Wan. In the OT it was clearly implied that they were master and apprentice.

As for Padawans being taken on missions, it seems fairly sensible, as long as they'd had enough training beforehand and the mission wasn't too critical or dangerous. It's much better than sending a 'rookie' Jedi out on their own with no real-world experience - which is precisely why Anakin Skywalker shouldn't have been charged with protecting the life of an important politician by himself. Lucas can't even follow his own rules.

[CowboyCurtis]

A rookie, sure! But not a STUDENT! Not somebody who should be still learning in the "academy."

In my opinion, Yoda trains the students with Force, atune them, give them the basics of telekinesis, seeing the future, etc., and then offer/counsel them in choices as a Force User. You could either be a Jedi Knight, a Jedi Master/Philospher, or someone who helps the other Jedi (if you're not THAT strong in the Force).

And if they choose the Jedi Knight path, then they're passed off to a martial coach, the one who actually trains them martial arts, saber-training, basic star-piloting, survival skills, etc., etc....

THEN they are put with a partner. He's NOT his master. Obi-Wan was at the right age in TPM to be the 'rookie' cop, and Q-G was the hard-bitten veteran.

You shouldn't be a rookie until you're 18-22 or so.

To top it off, Yoda should be a bit disappointed that Obi-Wan did not become a teacher; that he wasn't meant to be a Jedi Knight (even though Obi-Wan would be a damn fine Knight).

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 02 July 2004 - 07:57 PM

[Helena]

A rookie, sure!  But not a STUDENT!  Not somebody who should be still learning in the "academy."

How are they going to learn if not by being taken out on assignments? Like in real life, I imagine there are many aspects of the Jedi training that simply can't be taught in an Academy. Lots of professions have training on the job.

In my opinion, Yoda trains the students with Force, atune them, give them the basics of telekinesis, seeing the future, etc., and then offer/counsel them in choices as a Force User. You could either be a Jedi Knight, a Jedi Master/Philospher, or someone who helps the other Jedi (if you're not THAT strong in the Force).

And if they choose the Jedi Knight path, then they're passed off to a martial coach, the one who actually trains them martial arts, saber-training, basic star-piloting, survival skills, etc., etc....

Actually, KOTOR came up with something like what you proposed - Jedi could choose to specialise in lightsaber combat, Force training and philosophy, or a mixture of the two. Pity this idea wasn't explored in the prequels.

THEN they are put with a partner. He's NOT his master. Obi-Wan was at the right age in TPM to be the 'rookie' cop, and Q-G was the hard-bitten veteran.

You shouldn't be a rookie until you're 18-22 or so.

Does it really matter whether you call them a 'partner' or 'master', given that one is far older and more experienced than the other? Seems to me it's effectively the same thing. And I believe Anakin was 19 in AotC.

To top it off, Yoda should be a bit disappointed that Obi-Wan did not become a teacher; that he wasn't meant to be a Jedi Knight (even though Obi-Wan would be a damn fine Knight).

Don't quite understand this one...

[CowboyCurtis]

Maybe I need to clear up some things here. How old was Obi-Wan when he was handed over to Qui-Gon? If it's young, like younger than 18 or 19, that's too young to be an "apprentice" or a student or a learner in "job" that is so deadly.

Does it really matter whether you call them a 'partner' or 'master', given that one is far older and more experienced than the other? Seems to me it's effectively the same thing. And I believe Anakin was 19 in AotC.

To me, yes, it does. Yoda is Obi-Wan (as stated by the O-OT), not Qui-Gon. In my book, and in my rewrites, that's the way it is....

...and that's what my last statement was kind of referring to, my re-write, but, it's okay... don't worry about it.

[Helena]

Maybe I need to clear up some things here.  How old was Obi-Wan when he was handed over to Qui-Gon?  If it's young, like younger than 18 or 19, that's too young to be an "apprentice" or a student or a learner in "job" that is so deadly.

I've never read any of the EU stuff so I don't know much about Obi-Wan's background, but even if he became Qui-Gon's apprentice when he was younger than 18, it doesn't mean he immediately started going out on missions with him.

To me, yes, it does.  Yoda is Obi-Wan (as stated by the O-OT), not Qui-Gon.  In my book, and in my rewrites, that's the way it is....

I still don't entirely understand. If you're saying that Qui-Gon's character should never have existed, and that Yoda should have trained Obi-Wan instead, I agree. But I was responding to what you said about 'partners' versus 'master and apprentice' - from the analogy you gave (the rookie cop and the hard-bitten veteran) the relationship appears to be pretty much the same, whatever you call it.

I hate to defend Lucas, but there are so many obvious flaws in the prequels that it seems a bit OTT to attack him for ideas that make a reasonable amount of sense, such as Jedi apprentices being sent out on missions under supervision.