[Snake Logan]

I believe I quote Keith Olbermann when I say ``What in gods name are you talking about, sir?``

A warmonger will find a reason.

Thats a lovely non sequiter. The question however was whether you consider people that routinely attend public beheadings to be Westernized.

When I remember my childhood, watching movies with Schwarzenegger, Stallone, Van Damme, I remember seeing them blow away various people, blood and gore filling the screen. I can tell you for certain that violence is not something shunned in western society.

Alright so youve acknowledged that religion had something to do with it. Thanks. And please dont just say that they were used. If I happened to get nailed to a fucking cross Id kind of expect my friends to say something when George Bush went and made war in my name. Failure to speak up against something when youve been named as a party to it is collusion, and the Christian church has gone a lot further than simple failure to speak up.

I think the power of the Vatican made such imperialist desires possible from a religious perspective. The Vatican needed money and the Catholic Priests in France, Spain, Belgium and Portugal were more then ready to exploit people around the world who had not discovered gunpowder so the Pope could buy more jewels. The actions of said countries does not reflect on Christianity as the very idea of the Pope, that a man on earth can forgive sins, is anti-Christian.

No I guess you cant surely it must be any oxymoron.

That’s misrepresented communalism. Not communism.

Thats because the church was the second biggest land owner in France and Russia after the monarchy. You have to consider the historical conditions under which they worked.

France, Russia, Cuba, China and other places were an organic secular revolution took place had a Feudalistic society, were the poorest of the people had no lands. If you knew what Feudalism was then you would know that the church didn’t control the land, it was controlled by people not apart of the church that was loyal to the current monarch.

Modern communism however can interact well with the church with Vietnam being a good example. Cuba allows worship despite officially being an athiest state, and the restrictions on the catholic church that do exist come from the churchs collusion in the bay of pigs invasion, not from acute anti religionism.

As the Cuban or Vietnamese governments don’t allow dissent, I cannot say for certain how much they allow organized religion in their countries to prosper.

[Snake Logan]

Mao had to put down farmers? I was under the impression that the Cuban and Chinese revolutions were agrarian in nature. Silly me.

Cultural revolution.

I`m going to assume that you mean ``The basic principals of communism are against organized religion`` In which case, having read the communist manifesto I can tell you that the basic principals of communism have nothing to do with religion. Its basically a foot note where Marx complains about how religions tell people that they should be good automatons and put up with whatever the oppressing class does to them because if they try to fight back god will be mad. You have to follow the basic principals of something, but foot notes are easier to ignore. Just ask George Bush when it comes to the constitution.

I never said religion. I said organized religion.

And US backed regimes, for instance Batista in Cuba and Diem in Vietnam have also had a history of crushing religion. Therefor the basic principles of the US are anti religious.

I agree with that. America tends to help capitalist regimes, regardless what government or society they are fighting for or against.

But seriously. The established church will almost always get into trouble when theres a revolution whether communist or otherwise. For example the French revolution, the fascist takeovers in Italy and Germany, etc. Its not just communism.

Only in Germany and Italy did the fascist regime attack the religious institutions. Many other fascist regimes in South America and in Europe during WW2 relied on the local religion to maintain support. This is why there is a term known as Clerical Fascism. Sort of like Feudalism, Theocracy and Fascism all mixed into one.

As for Cambodia, I recall them getting their butts kicked by the NVA, AKA communist Vietnam.

After they were aided by the NVA and VC.

[J m HofMarN]

A warmonger will find a reason.

Thats nice but you didnt tell me why Civ2s friend is a war monger yet.

When I remember my childhood, watching movies with Schwarzenegger, Stallone, Van Damme, I remember seeing them blow away various people, blood and gore filling the screen.

JM: Do you consider it Western to attend a public beheading?
Snake: My parents let me watch bloody movies when I was a child.

Ah ok so movies are the same as reality now. Then isnt the US anti religious for movies like The Celestine Prophecy or The Davinci Code?

The actions of said countries does not reflect on Christianity as the very idea of the Pope, that a man on earth can forgive sins, is anti-Christian.

Ah ok so Catholicism isnt Christianity. Thats awfully convenient. What about the Southern Protestant religions and their consent for slavery and KKK activities?

That’s misrepresented communalism. Not communism.

Ah ok. I guess you know more about socialism than the followers of those two socialist movements. If only theyd had you around to tell them they were actually joining... communalism??? What??? Does that have something to do with homocest?

bla bla bla you dont know what feudalism is and the church didnt own any land

I dont typically use the term ``Whatever`` in debate but I think its called for in this instance.

As the Cuban or Vietnamese governments don’t allow dissent, I cannot say for certain how much they allow organized religion in their countries to prosper.

Let me get this straight... Because Cuba and Vietnam arent Western style democracies (and therefore ``dont allow dissent``) you cant get your hazy bass to Wikipedia or google and do a five second search for their record on religious rights?

I never said religion. I said organized religion.

There wasnt a major part of the manifesto about organized religion either.

I agree with that. America tends to help capitalist regimes, regardless what government or society they are fighting for or against.

So the US is anti religious too? Why did you have to criticize communism then?

Many other fascist regimes in South America and in Europe during WW2 relied on the local religion to maintain support.

But isnt being for a state religion as bad as being anti religion in general if not worse? I would rather go with the former.

After they were aided by the NVA and VC.

How much aid could the NVA give when they were being bombed by the US constantly?

[Snake Logan]

Thats nice but you didnt tell me why Civ2s friend is a war monger yet.

I don’t believe she isn’t a westerner as I haven’t met her.

JM: Do you consider it Western to attend a public beheading?
Snake: My parents let me watch bloody movies when I was a child.

If your point is that it is up to the parents then I doubt every parent in Saudi Arabia allows their child to watch public beheadings. If your point was that real violence and pretend violence is different, how exactly should a child know the difference?

Ah ok so movies are the same as reality now. Then isnt the US anti religious for movies like The Celestine Prophecy or The Davinci Code?

If by antireligious you mean secular then yes.

Ah ok so Catholicism isnt Christianity. Thats awfully convenient. What about the Southern Protestant religions and their consent for slavery and KKK activities?

The KKK members are the sons and daughters of slave owners. I doubt religion has much to do with their wanting to possess human beings.

Ah ok. I guess you know more about socialism than the followers of those two socialist movements. If only theyd had you around to tell them they were actually joining... communalism??? What??? Does that have something to do with homocest?

Communalism is a word, perhaps you should consult your dictionary once in a while.

[Snake Logan]

Let me get this straight... Because Cuba and Vietnam arent Western style democracies (and therefore ``dont allow dissent``) you cant get your hazy bass to Wikipedia or google and do a five second search for their record on religious rights?

Lets take a look at good old Wikipedia.

Cuba.

In the years following the Cuban Revolution, the Roman Catholic Church suffered persecution. Not only did Castro severely limit its activities, but in 1961 he confiscated, without compensation, all property held by religious organizations. Hundreds of members of the clergy, including a bishop, were permanently expelled from the nation. The Cuban leadership was officially atheist until 1992 when the Communist Party agreed to allow religious followers to join the party. In 1998, Pope John Paul II visited the island and was allowed to conduct large outdoor masses. During his visit, the Pope strongly condemned Castro and his human rights record but encouraged reconciliation. That same year, Cuba approved visas for nineteen foreign priests to take up residence in the country. In addition, other religious groups in Cuba such as the Jewish community are now permitted to hold public services and to import religious materials and kosher food for Passover, as well as to receive rabbis and other religious visitors from abroad.

Seems like you have only been following religious freedom in Cuba from 1992.

Vietnam.

The government officially provides for freedom of religion and recognizes Buddhist, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Hoa Hao, Cao Dai, and Muslim denominations. However, non-sanctioned groups, including branches of even the recognized denominations, face harassment. Furthermore, the government insists on supervising the clergies of the sanctioned groups (by approving appointments, for example) in the interest of “national unity.”

There wasnt a major part of the manifesto about organized religion either.

The manifesto sees organized religion as a barrier for the proletarian class and their struggle to achieve a communist utopia.

So the US is anti religious too? Why did you have to criticize communism then?

You were the first one to mention communism. Have you smoking magic mushrooms again?

But isnt being for a state religion as bad as being anti religion in general if not worse? I would rather go with the former.

It depends on the country. In a country were the people are mostly conservative farmers who own land, it would be best for a regime to rely on the religious leadership of that country for support. In a country were the people are mostly educated secularists that live in metropolises and towns then it would be best for the regime not to rely on the religious leadership. In a large country with both kinds of people in equal measure then civil war will probably happen. Like in Spain or dozens of countries in South America, Africa and Asia.

How much aid could the NVA give when they were being bombed by the US constantly?

How much could the NVA give to the VC? A lot thanks to the Ho Chi Mihn trail which travelled through Cambodia.

[Despondent]

How about if a teacher's children name a teddy bear after a prophet? Sorry, I'm just ducking in to say based on my limited view, Muslims can be good people, but also have a need to eradicate the infidels. We're all infidels, by the way. (based on my limited understanding).

[Snake Logan]

I am reminded of the mass rioting because of the Mohammed cartoons.

[J m HofMarN]

I don’t believe she isn’t a westerner as I haven’t met her.

Ah ok so shes back to being a self loathing capitalist of the current trend. Or is she? I think youve let your guard down prematurely. After all she is a Muslim and all and by your own admission there are only two kinds of Muslims, so if you havent met her how can it be safe to think shes safe?

Regardless of your lack of vigilance I award you a 7.5 out of ten possible points for pulling off a rare triple negative.

JM: Do you consider it Western to attend a public beheading?

Snake: My parents let me watch bloody movies when I was a child.

JM: Do you consider it Western to attend a public beheading?

Snake: Every parent there doesnt let their kids watch public beheadings. And how would a child know the difference between a public beheading and a movie?

JM: Do you consider it Western to attend a public beheading?

JM: Catholicism got up to naughty stuff

Snake: Catholics arent Christians.

JM: What about the southern churches consent for slavery and KKK activities?

Snake: The KKK members are the sons and daughters of slave owners.

JM: So what about the southern churches consent for slavery and KKK activities?

Communalism is a word, perhaps you should consult your dictionary once in a while.

Funny, generally when I see a word used in poor context it confuses me, but obviously not you. You see Communalism can mean communal living, which I doubt is the goal of the two socialist parties I mentioned, or it can be a word people throw around in place of communism. Either way you have no place saying that members of the socialist party accidentally joined it and are in actuality following some other ideal. If theyre socialists its fair to assume theyre socialists unless you mean to profess some inane conspiracy theory about how theyve been made to think that by Stalins ghost.

JM: Cuba has a fairly good system of religious freedom, considering.
Snake: Cuba only has religious freedom for the past decade or 2.

The manifesto sees organized religion as a barrier for the proletarian class and their struggle to achieve a communist utopia.

Because in most societies the ruling religious majority has a stake in preserving the current status quo or bringing the status quo back to a more conservative state. However this is obvious that to carry out a revolution one must destroy the defenders of the old system that it doesnt need a large statement to make it clear. Thus why anti religion is not a major part of the manifesto.

You were the first one to mention communism. Have you smoking magic mushrooms again?

I used the word communism, yes. That doesnt allow you to change the premise of the debate. Also I havent smoked any mushrooms or LSD lately but I look forward to hearing about your experiences smoking mushrooms.

In a large country with both kinds of people in equal measure then civil war will probably happen.

WHAT? Why? What does that have to do with whether its better to have an official state religion or be a non religious nation?

How much could the NVA give to the VC? A lot thanks to the Ho Chi Mihn trail which travelled through Cambodia.

Ah so because they transported stuff through cambodia sometimes they aided the Khmer? I think the US aided them more with their bombing campaigns but thats just me.

Despondent- Yeah that was pretty nutty.

Snake- Thats good.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 28 January 2008 - 04:53 PM

[Spoon Poetic]

In case you couldn't tell, Snake; Jm's point with the quoting is that you keep circumventing questions. If you don't know the answer to a question, just say so - bringing up some other point entirely or trying to make things connect that really don't is not going to make any of us miss that you didn't answer the question.

[Jordan]

I don't know what to believe any more, this past month has confused me entirely. I'll be back when I get more research in.

But just to chip in...

Communism was bad (is this what we're talking about now) but the guys who helped destroy it were worse, and still are worse.

Communisim's evil was out in the open but these western cartels are much more secretive. They do their thing so well that we all just accept it and shrug our shoulders. How come Communism gets all the blame and the witch hunts, when these other people I'm talking about publicly destroy areas in South Amerca and all over the world and we all just say "oh well".

Communisim and miltary states are stupid because they supress people. Western power groups know that if you let people be to their own devices, it's safer. We can protest, chant, make websites, use lower level radio and public TV to spread our messages, but nobody cares.

Under a really supressive regieme people tend to fight back, under a more clandenstine regieme (the one the US is under) people tend to just go about living life and ingoring all the wrongs being commited.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 28 January 2008 - 05:41 PM

[Snake Logan]

Ah ok so shes back to being a self loathing capitalist of the current trend. Or is she? I think youve let your guard down prematurely. After all she is a Muslim and all and by your own admission there are only two kinds of Muslims, so if you havent met her how can it be safe to think shes safe?

Since when did I single out Muslims as the only warmongers in the world? I could have sworn I said there were warmongering Americans.

JM: Do you consider it Western to attend a public beheading?

Western culture endorses violence so yes. They still have public executions in America if I am not mistaken. How is seeing someone being hang or electrocuted any worse then seeing someone be beheaded?

JM: So what about the southern churches consent for slavery and KKK activities?

A few racists priests is hardly the consent of the southern churches. Most blacks in the south are protestant. Are you saying that the black protestant church also condones KKK activities? Another example would be some of the Imams in the Middle East. What about their consent to terrorist activities and death squads? Are we to blame all of Islam because of the actions of a few?

Funny, generally when I see a word used in poor context it confuses me, but obviously not you. You see Communalism can mean communal living, which I doubt is the goal of the two socialist parties I mentioned, or it can be a word people throw around in place of communism. Either way you have no place saying that members of the socialist party accidentally joined it and are in actuality following some other ideal. If theyre socialists its fair to assume theyre socialists unless you mean to profess some inane conspiracy theory about how theyve been made to think that by Stalins ghost.

Would you call the system of government the Iroquois, Mohawk, Oneida, Seneca, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Tuscarora had was communism?

Because in most societies the ruling religious majority has a stake in preserving the current status quo or bringing the status quo back to a more conservative state. However this is obvious that to carry out a revolution one must destroy the defenders of the old system that it doesnt need a large statement to make it clear. Thus why anti religion is not a major part of the manifesto.

But religious rule puts money, power and influence into the hands of religious leaders and takes away power from the proletarian class. If that is the case, it takes money, power and influence away from the socialist government.

I used the word communism, yes. That doesnt allow you to change the premise of the debate. Also I havent smoked any mushrooms or LSD lately but I look forward to hearing about your experiences smoking mushrooms.

If you didn’t want to turn this into a debate about communist theory then you shouldn’t have mentioned communism and Cuba.

WHAT? Why? What does that have to do with whether its better to have an official state religion or be a non religious nation?

When a secular revolution sweeps into a country were at least half the population are poor landowners, then civil war happens. Like Spain for instance.

Ah so because they transported stuff through cambodia sometimes they aided the Khmer? I think the US aided them more with their bombing campaigns but thats just me.

The NVA were supplied by China, USSR and North Korea. It had plenty of supplies. The Ho Chi Mihn trial could not be supervised by American forces and most NVA supplies ended up in the hands of VC. This is proven because of actions like the Tet Offensive. Since the bombing of Cambodia by your countrymen didn’t actually extend to all of Cambodia, I don’t think it actually helped or hindered the rise of the Khmer.

[civilian_number_two]

Would you call the system of government the Iroquois, Mohawk, Oneida, Seneca, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Tuscarora had was communism?

No, I'd say those were oligarchies. And that's a terrible sentence.

[Snake Logan]

Oligarchy is a very general term. Almost every government is an oligarchy to one degree or another.

[Slade]

Your mom's an oligarchy.

[Otal Nimrodi]

Your face is an oligarchy.