[Rhubarb]

Heh. 'Given'.

[Laughlyn]

Great Britian is England plus whatever parts of Ireland and Scotland that they haven't given soverignty back to yet, I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about Wales! You're worse than the Picts you are. It's been Great Britian since the 16th century when we unified the crowns, just before the sinking of the Spanish armada. Because the language is English, it's a common foreign misconception.

But desire for regional independance in on the rise, (Scottish\Welsh parliments, NI assembly, The royal counties), so in 30-odd years we'll end up as a coalition of states like the US. Admittedly the Regional governments have about as much power as a puppet dictator, but they look nice.

In the name of plugging a pointless cause:

FREE CORNWALL!

[Slade]

The Picts? Wales? Don't yell at me, I admitted I wasn't sure.

The Picts?

[Laughlyn]

Picts = blood drinking, skirt wearing, northerners.

Or hollywoods version of the Scottish. Came over from Ireland and kicked the natives out way, way back.

Sorry for the shouting, England and wales are thought of as one country here in the glens, so I get a bit edgy. Oh I also forgot a shed load of islands\small territories worldwide that are still British, and thus count to the Isles as a whole.

[J m HofMarN]

Rhubarb- sorry about not inviting you, I'm glad you've arrived though. As for the vast circumstantial evidence against Tamimi I think that's just the worst. They have prisoners (who could easily have been tortured for all we know) to accuse him and noone else, and the only accusations they can drag up are "he played paintball and he supported the taliban" They don't even try to claim that this came to anything. What the hell?

And your link is seriously disturbing. I know the US captured children in Afghanistan and Iraq but right here at home? And they havn't even cited any evidence:

According to a government document provided to The New York Times by a federal official earlier this week, the Federal Bureau of Investigation has asserted that both girls are “an imminent threat to the security of the United States based on evidence that they plan to be suicide bombers.” No evidence was cited, and federal officials will not comment on the case.

An imminent threat? Without having anything to base it off of? Bastards. What the hell is wrong with people that they'd accept this and why havn't I heard about it at all? This is just horrible.

Peltier's an interesting one. I think anyone who's door get's kicked in by a gun waving mystery man has the right to shoot back. Isn't that constitutional over there or something? Selfdefence\manslaugher seems a lot more relevant in this case.

If you're someone the government has a problem with (Randy Weaver, Mumia Abu Jamal, several hundred Black Panthers, Leonard Peltier, any Muslim etc) than they apparently have the right to storm your home, point guns everywhere, and kill you if they feel like it.

Is anyone familiar with the case of Fred Hampton? He actually got it even worse than Mumia.

[Laughlyn]

Yeah I can remember hearing about hampton, another black panther wasn't he? Correct me if any of this information got spun prior to hitting british screens; Chicago based, organised multiethnic gang ceasefire in addition to other civic works. Was charged with steal sweets and giving them to children (in a bizarre robin hood way). Shot\executed in FBI raid. Later discovered that the BP's only fired one shot in the entire 'battle', and that Hampton may have been the target.

My main issue with the US is it's ability to hold people without trail without evidence. Comrade Blunkett tried to get the same powers over here, but got blasted by the house of lords (work is currently underway to remove\replace the lords and increase government control).

[Slade]

It's really great how our constitution means nothing anymore, isn't it?

[Dr Lecter]

It's really great how our constitution means nothing anymore, isn't it?

Ha! You think you still have a consitution! Not since Hitler came to power! I mean Bush, I keep confusing those two. I keep forgetting that Hitler is the one that's dead, and Bush can't speak German.

This post has been edited by Dr Lecter: 28 April 2005 - 01:30 PM

[Slade]

No, any time there's a politician in power that is an asshole it happens. Look at the Japanese internment camps in WW2, although they say it was due to someone near the top giving out bullshit information on pressure of farmers who hated the japanese for supposedly stealing jobs away. Truman then dropped atomic warheads on civilian cities in Japan. Hawaii was annexed under military force while the local people were suppresed from protesting and voting to choose whether for it to become a state or not. Teddy Roosevelt took panama without Congress' approval and we only gave it back in 2000. Then there's Korea and Viet Nam.

Bush is just the latest asshole to grace the world, although he's part of a growing movement. That is, the imperialist/corporatist reactionary in disguise as a 'compassionate conservative.' Often dubbed the neo-conservative, but reactionary practices are different from conservatism.

He care barely read or speak English, imagine him trying to speak German!

We're fucked unless someone does something soon to stop the process.

This post has been edited by Slade: 28 April 2005 - 04:09 PM

[Dr Lecter]

I would like to see Charles Kennedy to be Prime Minister, just so that he could meet Bush and piss him off. Bush is like totally demometrically opposed to Kennedy so he would be funny as fuck.

[Laughlyn]

Kennedy's spinless, a weak public speaker, and lacks charisma. He's going for the anti-war sentiment as a cheap way of picking up votes. If he came out fighting and went for Labour rather than just trying to poach Tory seats, I'd have a lot more respect for him.

'Liberal democrats are the true party of the opposition.'

'Nothing like aiming for second eh Charles?'

The LD's need a new leader if they're going to break any real ground.

[J m HofMarN]

Not only all of that, but he had been drugged by a pig nark. They put sleeping drugs in kool ade so there was no way Hampton was even conscious when they murdered him. They also shot his pregnant wife while she lay in bed beside him.

[MacGyver's Mullet]

Yeeeee - cool thread.

First - On the issue of Britain. Great Britain is name of the mainland, ie England, Scotland, Wales. The United Kingdon is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - that is why the offical title of the UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (from 1800 to 1921[?maybe 1937] it was just Ireland).

England, Scotland and Northern Ireland all all countries in their own right, Wales is a Principality. Which is why on the insignia-thing of the British Crown there is a Rose, Thistle and Shamrock - but no Leek. Similarly, this is why the Welsh flag is not in the Union Jack (the white X is the Scottish flag, the red + is England and the red X is the old [pre-independence] Irish flag). Also, the Union Jack is actually only called the Union Jack when its flying from a ship, at all other times it is called the Union Flag.

These interesting nuggets of pub-quiz wisdom were gained during a visit to the Houses of Parliament in 2001, having a guide who was so ultra-monarchist he made Ian Paisley seem like an Irish Republican. I spent about four hours there, a hungover longhaired Irishman in a hammer and sickle t-shirt accosting our guide about the history of the British Crown in Ireland. God knows it wouldn't have happened in the 70s or 80s, I'd have most likely found myself in Belmarsh!

Second - on the actual topic - theres no doubt that Mumia and Peltier are politicals. Doesn't matter if they did it or not (and I don't think they did) - if you commit murder for a politcial reason (or belong to a group that views murder as a valid tactic), then you are a political prisoner and should be afforded the rights of POWs under Geeneva.

As for Lynne Stewart, well thats self evidently absurd. Fuck, they introduced a big picture of Bin Laden in her trial FOR NO REASON! The judge ordered the jury 'disregard' the picture, but like, when your being tried for 'terrorism' a few blocks from Ground Zero, well what can I say?

Another less high profile political is Jose Padillo, at present held for 2 years and 326 days without trial or charge, for 'terrorism'. There are countless muslim/arabic people that have been rounded up since 9-11, many subsquently released, some apparently not. Some are 'rendered' - which in non newspeak means 'deported to another country where torture is commonplace and leave the rest to your imagination' (one case was a Syrian-Canadian citizen, seized in JFK (?) and deported to Syria where he was held incommunicado and tortured - then the US govt have the effrontery to diss Syria's human rights record!) Theres a pretty harsh documantry from Ch4 about the 'exporting torture' business here and another Ch4 film about the general state of the US prison system here (2.3 million inmates and growing steadily! That's about half the population Ireland).

Third - With regard to the Black Panthers generally, I view them as nothing less than heroes. I honestly think they were the most important revolutionary movement in 20th Century America, and a danger to the state because of their clear class analysis of the capitalist power structure and what was needed to overcome it - they were an organisation that was made up of and fought on behalf of the working class and poor black people and encouraged black people to empower themselves - and found common cause with other progressive and revolutionary white, asian, latino an student groups. Yes, they descended into internicine infighthing and imploded (but the hand of the State can be detected throughout this whole period - aside for the murders of leading Black Panthers, flooding black ghettoes with heroin, they also made up ridiculous letters purporting to be from one Panther leader and sent them to others leaders of the Panthers - this was in the days before e-mail kids! - sowing more distrust in the movement). The crushing of the BBP is the thing the US left (and I mean Left, not these sorry liberal 'oh why can't we all just get along' whiners) will have to learn the lessons of if they ever want to be successful. So what if they killed a few cops, it was for all intents and purposes a (class) war, a war that was declared by the State, not the Panthers.

The New Black Panther Party on the other hand are a bunch of Nation of Islam black seperatists/black capitalists - and surviving members of the BPP have openly called on them to stop using their name.

Anyway, theres an interesting article about Mumia and Michael Moore's stupid comment in Dude, Where's My Country here. Moore has since apologised for his lunacy.

[J m HofMarN]

The BPP are also responsible for school lunch and breakfast programs (even though the drech served in schools probably isnt nearly as good as what the Panthers provided). Somehow, Macgyversmullet, I think I like you.

I hadnt even heard about the Michael Moore thing, but I'm glad he apologized.