[Cobnat]

... any reasons in particular?

Well... to many reasons to name point by point... but I am also angry that my religon doesnt control its followers like the Cathelic religon does.

[Jordan]

Read the article I posted, it's really good. It's more on topic than what we are currently discussing.

PS- JM, christians don't live by old testament, for the 50,000 time. You love rehashing out-dated laws. Nobody follows leviticus, not even the jews. They should, but the don't. I think it's a source of embarrisment among them that they don't kill bulls and stone heathens.

But back to the Iranian thing. READ the ARTICLE! ROFL

http://www.energybul....net/12125.html

If what he says is true, then Bush has no choice but to act. Scary shit!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 24 January 2006 - 10:42 AM

[Cobnat]

Read the article I posted, it's really good. It's more on topic than what we are currently discussing.

PS- JM, christians don't live by old testament, for the 50,000 time. You love rehashing out-dated laws. Nobody follows leviticus, not even the jews. They should, but the don't. I think it's a source of embarrisment among them that they don't kill bulls and stone heathens.

But back to the Iranian thing. READ the ARTICLE! ROFL

http://www.energybul....net/12125.html

That is so Christiany, trying to probe thier ideas and beliefs onto others...

[Jordan]

What the hell are you talking about?

[Slade]

I don't know what anyone is talking about here anymore. This thread = Iran/imperialism/whatever. Other thread = religion.

Alternatively: I probed my ideas into your mom last night!

No, seriously, the problem isn't a specific religion, it's the sheep who blindly follow what they are told and don't take a moment to reflect on it and understand when it's fucked up.

And yes, if you're pro-colonization/imperialism, you have no choice but to consume the globe to better your nation. It all makes sense, but it's a rather repugnant political/economic philosophy in my eyes. That an "empire should go to war... [to]benefit from war" is a policy that belongs in the 1600s. *sigh* But might will always make right to some people... And it's always nice when you need to attack another country to defend yourself. Really though, only the people in power benefit from any of this stuff at all. It's all meaningless if you're not a global company that trades goods.

I really do hate people...

[Jordan]

I'm trying to get it back on topic lol.

http://www.energybul....net/12125.html

And yes, if you're pro-colonization/imperialism, you have no choice but to consume the globe to better your nation.

Whocares what you or I think of it, according to this article, it simply IS how things are run and how do you take it from here? It links that with the war on iraq and eventually on iran.

It's not about killing browns as per JM's theory, it's not about freedom, it's not about stealing oil. It's about keeping the US economy stable and making sure the rest of the world falls in check.

It's news to me, and I find it kind of cool and scary all at once. I never knew the US f'ed up so bad in the past. I just found the article to be really interesting. Thought it would spark some more debate on the subject.

Futhermore, the article is totally removed from any emotional stance. You're kind of viewing it as what is evil and what is good. Try look at it from a logistic point of view. I'm mulling over it right now. Perhaps evil is the right in this case, or maybe being good is right. Get what I'm saying?

This post has been edited by Jordan: 24 January 2006 - 11:22 AM

[J m HofMarN]

That's what I'm talking about. A pre-emptive attack is an attack that ensures that the enemy will not be able to be in a position to attack or defend an attack from you with any success. Maybe I"m just being silly.

Every attack is meant to do that. I could bludgeon someone to death and that would keep them from attacking me, but I'd be a murderer. The sole justification for a pre-emptive war is if a nation has demonstrated that it is preparing and has the will to attack you. For instance if documents surfaced about Iraq's desire to blow up a US city using whatever it is they never had, that might have been justification, but just the fact that someone you don't like is looking for a gun dosn't give you reason to blow up their house. That's not pre-emptive, it's just murder.

I don't know much about the situation, nothing to be exact.

What is the muslim brotherhood? Muslim anything is generally not good.

It was actually a test. A news network ran one like it using a made up Muslim nation and asking people on the street if the US should go to war with said made up countries. A surprising majority said yes even though they couldnt have had any information to base that decision on. Of course the fact that Google is just a URL away probably made research a bit easier, so the trick was flawed, but I'm still glad you thought to look into the matter before jumping on it.

Buhdist anything is irrelevant in todays world.

Righto I'll remember that next time I'm offered classes on Budhism "Thanks but no thanks, Jordan says you're irrelevent." Are there any other countries or world religions you'd like to sideline?

The women dress up like ghosts!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I'm sorry... HAHAHAHAHAHA... HEHE.... OK OK. hehe. That could only have been funnier if you'd termed it more like "In Muslim Russia, women dress as ghosts!" or "In Muslim Russia, Plane crashes You!"

They don't interact with non-muslims, they are the worst sort of people if you want an integrated society.

You really don't understand the whole idea of immigrants do you? Why don't you go to a foreign country and see if you're Mr. Congeniality. It's fairly likely that you'll instead want to hang out with people who speak your language and share your customs until you get to know the language and customs of the land you're in.

And here's another thing, not all fugging Muslims "dress as ghosts" or wear skull caps or large beards, just as not all Christians wear pope hats and priest robes and carry rosaries. Some Muslims look just like everyone else. In fact there could be Muslims everywhere around you getting their Islam on and you'd never know it. There are a number of African American Muslims, in fact they had their own "terrorist" group led by Malcolm X if you recall. I don't know if you ever saw pictures, but they look just like everyone else.

Let's put it this way, if you fall in love with a girl from a muslim family, don't meet the parents. They will probably kill you and your girlfriend. That or ship her away to muslim land where she can't think for herself.

In Muslim Russia, game wins you!

The bible is full of violent passages as well, if you want a non-violent religion maybe you should become one of the "hippes that don't have sex."

As for your argument about hypocracy, I don't believe I've ever justified the communist invasion of Afghanistan, so you're wrong on that point.

The article was fascinating and it certainly does make good sense. Never the less you seem to accept the system of empire that relies on bloodshed and slavery, whereas this article seems to only prove how harmful and evil that system is.

[J m HofMarN]

it's not about freedom

In what way is the world's struggle to be free of hedgemony not about freedom? Maybe for you it's about continued financial security, but for people in Iraq and Iran it's about not wanting to die so some capitalists can get rich.

[Jordan]

Well it's obviously a catch 22. From a moral stand point, it's wrong. But from a logical stand point, it's right. I mean, what are you going to do? It's an epic sized scenario. I've never lived in a great depression, the worst I've lived through is the 1989 real estate bubble bust, which didn't affect me at all.

Money worth nothing, no jobs, yikes. I mean, that's scary shit. What would it be like to live in a world where the US does not run the show? Think about all the countries that hate us. They don't see you and me, they see Bush and the US army. Sure I"m canadian, but we'll go down with you guys. We rely on your trade and defense.

[Slade]

I don't think that you can place any ethics within the logic of the US not wanting its currency devalued and conquring nations to do so. It's not "right" because it's logical. It would be "right" if you're of the persuasion that you don't want your nation's economy to be devalued, and that economy depends on something that you can't control without starting wars, and you're willing to do that.

JM: I didn't see much humor in Jordan's statement. And "getting their Islam on" would have earned you a gold star, but I've already given one out this week. Sorry.

And in a world where the US isn't the largest imperialist power in the world, petty infighting would break out amongst nations that were previously allied against the US, and Russia or China would swoop in and start taking everyone's resources and become the new dominant power.

[J m HofMarN]

Money worth nothing, no jobs, yikes. I mean, that's scary shit.

Yes, it is scary if you live in a country that has been crushed under the jackboot of your "logical imperialism". Your justification is that taking the food from the mouths of people in third world countries ensures that you have enough to eat? You disgust me.

What would it be like to live in a world where the US does not run the show?

In a world where the US doesn't run the show:

100000 Iraqis would still be alive today.
thousands of human beings would not be in secret prisons being tortured right now.

I rather like that world.

Think about all the countries that hate us. They don't see you and me, they see Bush and the US army.

No, no they don't Jordan. Cuba has offered medical aid to the US on numerous occasions despite our government trying to murder their leader and invade their great nation. Venezuela's president, who's murder has also been attempted because your imperialist though it was "logical" has given oil away to poor Americans in NY to heat their homes. Every country we tyranize is able to make the distinction between American people and our imperialist murdererous government.

It's people like you who are unable to see that the people we murder are real, that the families we break up were made up of real men women and children and not just some faceless Muslims or people who "dress as ghosts". It's people like you who can't understand that those who are different from you, or those who's governments disagree with yours, actually matter. And that's how you justify it, because whenever you see the US carpet bombing villages (as you indeed suggest they do!) you think to yourself "well they were nonbelievers who hated us anyhow" Bullshit.

I cannot hope enough for the fall of the US empire, and whatever happens afterward to those who stood by amid all the injustice and sucked up the benefits of the rape of the third world is justified.

John Steinbeck said that we are sowing the grapes of wrath, and I never grasped the full meaning of that statement until now. The harvest of the seeds planted by imperialism, tyranny, murder, torture and hedgemony will be a bitter one indeed.

Slade- Ignorance may not usually be funny, but sometimes it just tickles you the right way. Of course that was only funny to me because it was worded just right, showed a complete lack of even basic comprehension of Muslim culture, and because I'm not a Muslim.

[Jordan]

You seem to be missing the point. If they did fall, you wouldn't be partying with all your wannabe-commy friends, Castro would not take up smoking again and hand out cigars to you and your hemp sweater pals, there would be no celebration.

There would be only bad. Bad things for you. Regardless of how anti-american you are.

But ya, you missed my point and the point of the article entirely. Which is funny because you always tell me to read things, here was your chance to show me how and you blew it!

It's not about what we did or why we did it. It's about what do we do now with the situation that is upon us. You keep bringing in all this heart tugging sentiment like "blow murder are real, that the families we break up were made up of real men women and children and not just some faceless Muslims"

[Spoon Poetic]

JM - Yes, Americans are dumb and lazy and arrogant and selfish. But who's to say that America being the dominant world power is worse than any other alternative? Face it: if America were to suddenly lose its status, some other power-hungry country will just take our spot. It could end up even being worse. I'd honestly prefer America to be the dominant world power and live here, than for the roles to be reversed and have Saddam and his type making his mark on the whole world - life would suck just because I'm a woman; let alone all the horrible injustices inflicted on his own people and religious laws. America isn't perfect, no, not by far. But why do you have to harbor such hatred against a country that you have to discredit EVERYTHING they do? I mean, it seems to me that America could give 50,000 starving people in Africa brand-new homes and a guaranteed full refrigerator for the rest of their lives, and you'd find some way to turn that into a horrible thing. Your only belief is that "AM3RICA IS TEH SUxXx0RS, EAT SH1T AND D1E n00B" and every other country is so wonderful, just because they're not the U.S. And you realize that the only articles/information you take into account is extremely biased towards your cause?

I don't agree with what the U.S. is doing right now, either. But I just had to address the fact that a lot of your arguments are just ridiculous. Fir instance: Bush is Hitler? Come on, Hitler was SO much smarter!

[Slade]

He actually said that he wasn't comparing him to Hitler recently.

[Spoon Poetic]

Maybe when you compare Saddam to Hitler it's absurd, but Bush to Hitler is very much spot on."