Chefelf.com Night Life: I support Palestine's right to self defense - Chefelf.com Night Life

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I dont care what you doubt. Enclaves of a few hundred people, living on stolen land (usually hill tops) and surrounded by a sea of people who rightly want to kill them because of said stolen land, would obviously fortify their settlements. Not only that, but any plant life in the circumfrence of the fortifications, including farmers crops, was bulldozed so that people trying to get rid of the settlers wouldnt have any cover during their justified attacks.

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No. That was your source, not mine. Its not my job to find sources to prop up your side of the debate. Infact, I'm kind of interested in doing the opposite. to that effect I offer this information from wikipedia. I know, they're surely biased, but when was the last time you read an article there about Obama being in league with the fucking reverse vampires? The stats they quote are from the Australian government. If you intend to challenge them, you need to explain why an insane right wing rag published in the US knows more about Australia than the Australian government.

http://en.wikipedia....cs_in_Australia

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Then if only the officers are in danger of random murder, are you implying that the common foot soldiers are the ones doing the exploitation? That doesnt seem to make sense. How are they being exploitative?

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How can you base quality of life estimates off of population alone? By that reasoning, Rawanda is in better shape than Rhode Island (hint, Rhode Island is not actually full of crack head zombies with assault rifles)

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I don't know, what about them? You can't just toss in "what about this" or "what do you know about such and such". You have to expand on that. And I think my system of "land belongs to those who work on it, and have ancestral claims" is better than your idea of "land belongs to whoever has more assault rifles"

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Ah, then why did she leave us to teach you the difference between your and you're, etc?
And I really dont understand how public education is a scam at all. Please elaborate. Would you rather we went back to feudalism where a father just taught his trade to his son and they were trapped in that societal caste for generations?

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

Deucaon, on 05 April 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

Fine, I'll find you your link. If only because I'm a mental masochist who enjoys teaching the unteachable.
http://www.google.co...9df6cd32cc2586c
There you go. I can't be bothered locating each individual year.

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

No, they all do. They're glorified gangbangers. But Israel only targets the officers for airstrikes because it's in practical to try and track down every degenerate gangbanger and bomb their house.

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

Life sustainability.

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

If it belongs to those who work on it and have ancestral claims then the land belongs to the Jews. They were over a thousand years before the Arabs showed up. Regardless, I mentioned Jordan and Egypt because they share a border with Palestine too. You say that Israel is to "blame" when Jordan and Egypt are equally to "blame." Also, the only reason why "Palestinians" have any land is because they whored themselves out to the Egyptians, the Ottomans, the English and other passing empires. They're the kind of tribe which wouldn't be able to exist on their own.

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

What have you been smoking? You didn't teach me anything. Except that living in Nevada means you'll probably be exposed to high levels of radiation causing you to become a retarded government drone.

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

Yes, yes, yes. Because if we don't surrender ourselves to the government then feudal lords will rise up and reclaim the land. The purpose of public education, as proposed by French and German official during the 1800s, was to create a loyal workforce through indoctrination. If you need a decade for somebody to teach you how to read, write and do basic maths then there's something wrong with you. If you think you need to be taught a whole bunch of shit you'll never have practical use for, go to a library. If you wish to be specialized in a certain field, become an apprentice.

You just did a random google search for stats? I... Did you even look at them before linking? Most of them come up like this: "A General Error has occurred on the system. You are attempting to locate a document or link which no longer exists or is unable to be found at the moment. Please press the back button to go to your previous screen." I am amazed that you dont even read your own sources.

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But quality of life isnt based solely upon successful reproduction. Indeed the reproduction rate is higher in the 3rd world than in developed countries with better life quality.

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I really think your history is wrong. Palestinian is derived from Philistine, you know, the people who, after murdering or capturing them, the ancient Jews would mutilate their genitalia for kicks? So yeah maybe they have had it kind of rough in the past, but they were there before 1949 and Al Naqba, and god willing they'll be there long after Israel is dust.

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No, I didn't, but I recall Slade and others hammering into your skull that your and you're were not interchangable.

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LOLWUT?

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Thats a great idea. I'm going to become an apprentice milk man or internet tycoon. Good thing people dont need to have any skills to fall back on them, cuz their chosen employment is bound to be around forever!

Also, I know this might come as a shock to your gigantic adolescent intellect, but some people actually enjoy learning, or "indoctrination" as you put it. They are grateful for the education they got in the evil state run schools. I know, it's crazy, but its true.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 05 April 2010 - 05:27 PM

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

That was the official bureau of statistics.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

Except in those traditional 3rd world countries the death rate is substantial and often equalizes the birth rate. Not so in Palestine.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

Except the Palestinians are Arabs who just took the name of an extinct tribe. Or are you saying that everyone in places like Manhattan or Dakota is an Indian? Please use your brain next time before you begin spouting mindless rhetoric. It embarrasses us both that you can't do so while we debate.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

You recall wrong.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

I'm sorry, I thought that a decade was how long public education lasts in your country. I guess they might have given up early on you.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

You can always become a labourer. Unless that sort of thing is "too good" for uppity shits like you.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

Those people are idiots. I think Mark Twain said it best. I can't really add more to that beautifully crafted sentence.

Dudes, the namecalling. I addressed this elsewhere. But want it here for good measure. Yeah, um, quit with it.

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The challenge was, and I'll spell it out, to find statistics that supported your side of the argument and were based upon reality. A news story from a reputable Aussie paper, wikipedia article, anything. You provided a website that promulgates the idea that Obama is the antichrist, and then you also offered several broken links. Your sources are like a grab bag full of broken glass and medical waste.

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That's good. You have done nothing to refute my point that the overall population, or the growth rate thereof, does not reflect the quality of life in a given area.

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Alrighty, there is no historical proof of descent from the Philistines, you're right. What happened was that after kicking the Jews out for not playing nice in 200 AD, the Romans renamed the land Palestine. Then eventually Arabs came and hung out there, and then got swallowed up in the Ottoman empire. Only around the 1850s did the Palestinians start identifying as such and begin nationalist movements. Also, as to your assertion that the Palestinians needed so much help from others, the Zionists had help from the Brits to organize their terrorist massacre squad, which killed a ridiculous number of civilians for no good reason. The original terrorism in Palestine was committed by Zionist terrorists.

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When youre going to challenge someone's knowledge of the forum's history, don't challenge the one who is writing the forum's history.

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-Slade correcting your grammar(islam thread, page 9)

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- Slade does it again! (islam thread, page 15)

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Its not so much your time frame I don't grasp, as the idea that people who require public school to learn writing and arithmetic are idiots.

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So then, in your utopian society, people will either have to take up their parents trade, or do unskilled labor that will have no minimum wage? In what way is that remotely preferable to the current, non-feudal social order?

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Fabulous. Just fabulous.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

http://www.smh.com.a...0400366681.html
http://www.aic.gov.a...y/20010131.aspx

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

Yes, it does. Whether or not they have jobs and televisions has nothing to do with whether they have food and medical care.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

Except the Jews have always been there. "The Lost Tribes" were just a bunch of weakling clans who couldn't take a beating and fled. And I love how you deplore Jewish terrorism while justifying, even applauding, Muslim terrorism. Really "moral." The fact remains that the Jews won a war against the Arabs during the late 1940s, and again during the 1960s, which showed their abilities to defend themselves. Palestinians always needed others to fight for them. Even during the 1940s and 1960s they had legions of Arab armies helping them yet they still failed.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

What's the "islam thread" and why don't you just link it?

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

No, it's the people who think they need bureaucratic institutions to learn "writing and arithmetic."

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

Feudalism is people feeding you, clothing you, housing you and generally taking care of you in exchange for you working for the rest of your life and getting conscripted once in a while. That aside, in "my ideal world" people wouldn't crowd cities thus deflating wages there.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

The idiots being the people who think they need an inefficient bureaucracy to learn.

Could either of you formulate some sort of half-time post and clarify which of your points have already been clarified, which points still need to be discussed and which points can be discussed even though you won't change your opinion about them? All that quote-bashing is becoming rather dull.

Gobbler, on 07 April 2010 - 10:26 PM, said:

Well my original argument was that both the Israelis and Palestinians are too stupid or cowardly to live. I doubt either would exist long if they didn't have outside support. Then again, these are purely national identities which would cease to exist once their selected nations cease to exist, so technically they don't exist in the first place. Their national identities have been invented to serve a purpose which is to lay claim on land. So far they have both claimed the title of long since extinct tribes. I'm sure you understand since "Prussians" did the exact same thing.

Gobbly- Deuacon states that:
Israeli settlements are not fortified, but are totally ok because Palestinians (and maybe Israelis?) all deserve to die.
Public education is a farce and a return to feudalism is preferable
That the only meaningful determinant of quality of life is net population growth,
And that, of course, gun restrictions in Australia have led to more crime.

I disagree. Because I'm a tyrant.

Deuacon - This is from your first link:

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So, the statistics they cite there show that firearms murders have fallen by 2/3rds, and that there havent been anymore mass killings. The two sentences above are creatively worded. WEAPONS is the word, not firearms. Most robberies in Australia are done using knives now. So your theory that if guns are banned only criminals will have guns is wrong. Criminals will give up on guns and use knvies, which are easier to defend against and don't kill dozens of people at a go unless you just watched V For Vendetta. Also, please dont watch V For Vendetta.

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Birth rate is always higher in the developing world than in the industrialized world. An average family size in Europe or the US is 1-2. Average number of offspring in SE Asia or Africa would be like what, five or six? So even if they're only living 30-40 years, the population still grows because birth rate makes up for life expectancy. You can not claim that India has a higher quality of life than the US just because they have a larger population.

As for this crap about Palestine, which we were originally discussing but got sidetracked (no idea how) I applaud anything my brother workers do on THEIR OWN LAND in defense of their own land. Anything done to get Israelis off of stolen land is completely justified in my mind. If the Israelis have a residential claim to the place in the 1000 years before Al Naqba, how do you explain that before 1949 Palestinians were the vast majority of the occupants of modern day Israel, yet afterwards Jews outnumbered them by far? Only an orchestrated campaign of genocide could have achieved such a drastic reversal.

On the school qwuestion: Exactly how could public schools become non bureaucratic? And why is this bureaucracy so harmful?

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That sounds pretty much like agrarian slavery to me. And who would be the "people" doing the feeding, clothing and housing? And why would they want to take such good care of people? What if they were greedy land barons who gave people a shack, a pot to piss in, and maybe a garden to grow their own vegetables, and also, an overseer to whip them if they didnt work?

And as for the Islam thread? just how many 20 page arguments about westerners and warmongers and communalist indians have you participated in?

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 08 April 2010 - 01:24 AM

J m HofMarN, on 08 April 2010 - 07:56 AM, said:

Hm, that again... I still fail to see what this whole (in my opinion imaginary) class struggle has got to do with Israel and the State of Palestine, could you share some enlightenment there? I mean, if you twist your point of view enough then surely you can make it appear as if the fat cats in Israel are ganging up on the poor downtrodden (i.e. "workers") in Palestine, but I think that's simply the natural way in which situations develop when two opposing forces differ greatly when it comes to things like inside and outside support, economic power, resources, infrastructure etc.
So far I haven't heard much that would position Palestine as something like an outspoken communist or socialist society or whatever is sufficient nowadays to justify that whole class struggle argument.

J m HofMarN, on 08 April 2010 - 07:56 AM, said:

My guess would have been mass-immigration.

But seriously now, why are we still being adamant about that point? History doesn't have much to do with who 'rightfully' owns some sort of land - just like polemics, illusionary morals and other nonsensical sentiments. Those things are only good for stirring up the masses, but in the end the only thing that matters is if you can stay in control over your little patch of land. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. That's the only real lesson to draw from history.

Class struggle is quite real, but I assume you meant that in relation to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And whether its natural for the rich to terrorize and murder the poor or not has nothing to do with it, it's wrong and should be fought tooth and nail. Palestine is not a communist state, of course. But the people there, fighting zionist terrorism with rocks and home made mortars and with their own lives, are my brother workers. The only way the poor can defeat the exploiting class is with class unity. In other words the American working class and the workers of all other nations need to unite behind the Palestinian cause and see it as their own cause. Victory for injustice anywhere is a defeat for justice everywhere, etc.

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Driven by what? Millions of people dont just abandon their homes and possessions and livelyhoods for no reason to go live in squalor. Alright then, I dig the historical utilitarianism approach, but isnt that kind of a cop out? It comes down to fatalism, an attitude that plagues far too many young people. The rulers are going to do whatever they want anyhow, so why get involved? Well, that's bullshit.

And even if you subscribe to your own helplessness, well, why not still look at things from a historical point of view? While people whine about the Palestinian terrorism these days, I think (unless we change the course of history) in 200 years people will go to a Palestinian reservation on some godforsaken patch of land, where the last remnants of their people drink away their lives and open gambling houses, and consider how vile the actions of the Zionist enemy were today.

So, very well, if you want to look at it from a historical point of view, go for it. But historically speaking, everything the Palestinians are doing pales in comparison to the massive organized genocide of the Zionists. So, apply what would be the view of your future history to today's world, and admit that the Palestinians are putting up a goddamn valiant fight against extermination.

Okay, I understand your viewpoint Jm, and this isn't supposed to be some crappy ad-hoc fallacious argument or anything, I am just legitimately curious as to your personal views: How do you feel about the Holocaust?

I mean like... Do you think that it was horrible along the same lines as you feel what the Palestinians are currently going through is horrible; or do you think that it was somehow fair, like some kind of time-machine justice for what some Israelis are doing now; or are you a Holocaust denier; or something else completely? Just wondering.

I promise I'm not making that tired argument of "you're on the Palestinians' side, that must mean you think the Holocaust was AWESOME!!!" I just legitimately am curious as to your thoughts on what happened back then, as I've recently run into a handful of people that have all kinds of justifications and reasonings and arguments and what-not and proposed cause/effect stuff about the Holocaust, that I hadn't really thought about before, in relation to the current conflict.

I understand, no offense taken, I dont think theres a single thing the fascists did that I would appreciate. The holocaust has been kind of grabbed up as a purely Jewish phenomenon, but people need to realize that people like me (leftists) would have been included in that, as would gays, jehovas witnesses, general anti-fascists, gypsies, spaniards who fought for the republic, and so forth. So of course I abhor the holocaust as an assault by oppressors against the left and minorities. It wasn't purely an assault on Judaism, and shouldnt be regarded as such. No other group that was victimized gained so much political capitol from it either.

I think that the way the Israelis have coopted the holocaust in order to cover for their own genocidal acts is a villainy against the memory of all of those killed during it, Jew and non Jew alike. But of course, the zionists in that area have always been more interested in stealing land than anything. Did you know that Zionist terrorist groups collaborated with the Nazis in efforts to drive the british and Palestinians out of Palestine? Thats how concerned they were about the poor suffering Jews and gypsies and so forth in Europe. They'd have been willing to help the Nazis win if it had helped them kill some Arabs.

Wow, Gobbler isn't a moron. Sorry, mate. I thought less of you ever since you told me you support censorship in Germany because it censors things you don't believe in. Not anymore, though.