God Any christians on the forums?
#496
Posted 07 September 2005 - 12:43 AM
And your tidbit is nice but its one I run into all the time - the insistence of duality - good requiring evil to exist. I don't like the insistence of duality - particularly as good and evil, being subjective, are a spectrum rather than two opposite points. And it is not a single spectrum - it is countless spectra, each with end-points such as selflessness, selfishness and all sorts of things. People can be good relative to a point in some things - they may be honest - however, gradually honesty becomes verity and eventually honesty can be cruel. So the point of that little bit there - there isn't a linear scale of good to evil, rather of evil to evil through good along countless spectra. Good is actually a decision to moderate between two forms of evil. (If you've read your Aristotle, you may note the Golden Mean in this thought) - take the justice system, which in some places is held by a fixed perspective to be good, and in others evil. This is because they avoid one evil more than another - Western countries tend to avoid punishing innocents, while others avoid not punishing the guilty. Systems tend to an equilibrium state of 'goodness' by establishing a moderate point between the two extreme points of evil.
But part of all that is that there need not be duality - and since good is such a subjective thing, it is difficult to state that any entity is universally good or universally evil - only good or evil from a fixed point.
Take Satan for example - Lucifer, mightiest of Angels, is the Demi-Urge to God's Supreme Being. He has limited yet immense power, is foresighted but not truly prescient, and can only alter, not himself create. He also has the capacity for choice, and is proud. He is, from a certain point, good. He does God's work - he sorts the wicked from the righteous - he punishes those who reject God - if he were truly God's enemy, he would not punish those who sinned against God, but reward them. He performs a necessary function in the Christian world. But yet, because of his association with malevolence, maleficience and malediction he is dubbed as being evil for all his hard work to make the afterlife better for God's Own. Poor bugger.
Also - the stuff you said about 'perfect humans' as distinct from 'perfect creatures' is valid, but seems to be arguing from end to beginning. I am saying - if God was perfect, wouldn't his humans be perfect creatures, who could combine the human capacity for choice with divine ability to make the right choice? Why do the creations of a perfect being have to be flawed? Why does God's greatest heavenly creature, have a flaw that beckons him to mar the work of God for the sake of his pride and why does God's greatest earthly creature have a flaw that they would break the laws of their benefactor and creator, being greedy while given Paradise and take that which he who had given so much to them had forbidden in sorry repayment of his generosity. I think both these faults must mean a fault in the creator - a fault which He supposes not to have.
#497
Posted 07 September 2005 - 09:28 AM
But why must a creator be flawed to create flawed things? How can anyone even begin to fathom what the intent of an entity like that is? For all we know, we're just some cosmic experiment on mixing self-awareness and mass communication with the primates.
Bleh, I've got to pay attention in class.
#498
Posted 07 September 2005 - 01:08 PM
Mnesymone, thx for clearing up that name issue. your argument is well-founded but inappropriate, you see, to the christian mind, good and evil are NOT subjective, they are the point of view of the Most High. what is good, is what He decides is good. you say honesty can be cruel, and likewise, helping a butterfly from its cucoon my kill it and so forth, no one can know how our actions will ultimatly effect others, no one but god, the eternal observer. that is why christians try to act according to god's wishes. have you ever heard the saying, what would jesus do? the idea is that god knows what is good, good for everyone, (god knows becuase hes god) so you should act how god tells you to act. and even if you fail at that, god knows what your intentions were. i have read my aristotle (physics, metaphysics, ethics, poetics, and rhetoric). but aristotle was not a christian, his views are based on rationality, christianity is based on faith. that is why you cannot win an argument against god: if you understood, youd believe; if you believed, youd understand.
for a better explanation, i recomend screwtape letters and mere christanity by C.S. Lewis. and also discipline and punish by michel foucault.
#499
Posted 07 September 2005 - 05:00 PM
#500
Posted 07 September 2005 - 07:30 PM
If humans only had the capacity to make the "right" choice, then they would not have choice at all. Free Will implies that there is the option to do what is right along with the option to do what is wrong. And unlike some who take Man to be ultimately flawed, I think we make the right choices a lot of the time. The problem that Man often does wrong is not enough to convince there is no God.
#501
Posted 07 September 2005 - 07:45 PM
You're kidding, right? Sounds to me like you are only speaking only people who posses at least a nominal intelligence (only joking). Besides that, right and wrong are subjective. For heaven's sake let's just skip over that argument because I'm sure that we can understand each other anyways.
"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto
Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
<a href="http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html" target="_blank">http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html</a>
#502
Posted 07 September 2005 - 10:43 PM
Xen: So essentially, what you're saying is "You can argue with me, but only if you dissregard every convention of debate, which you have to do, since it's a subjective topic. *smirk*" You may not be able to win an argument against God, but you surely can't win one for Him, either. And everybody already understands that the Christian viewpoint on morality differs from others. That doesn't really contribute to the argument.
Now I'll just wait for everybody else to say the same thing I did and ignore me.
#503
Posted 07 September 2005 - 11:51 PM
Oh... sorry Slade.
And this is why all arguments fall down - I'm not talking about the premises of the debate, I'm talking about the debate itself. Because faith argues from faith. Rationality cannot counter faith and we are all left where we started.
And for me, being left where I started isn't that bad - chaotic forces created the world and the universe, life ends at death, the only afterlife is our legacy amongst those we predecease, the soul is an agglomeration of the opposition of Dionysian and Apollonian emotion moderated by memory, all things can be reduced to physics without the need for metaphysical explanations and the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlamp of an oncoming train.
#504
Posted 08 September 2005 - 12:16 AM
#505
Posted 08 September 2005 - 07:57 AM
One of the biggest things about ones faith/religion is that your way is the right way. The reason why you would want others to be a part of it is so that they too can be right. Slade, for what other reason do you promote your goddess? The method is three-fold. It shows what your faith/religion is, that you believe that it is the right, and to show others the way.
I'm sorry, but I don't think I've killed anyone lately (I know what you were going for, but I choose to disregard that knowledge ). The closest I've come to converting anyone is convincing them to lead better lives. Suprisingly it has worked with several people. If that is the first step for them to some day have faith in God, then I have succeeded .
Oh yeah, try and stop me!
This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 08 September 2005 - 07:58 AM
"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto
Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
<a href="http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html" target="_blank">http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html</a>
#506
Posted 08 September 2005 - 10:33 AM
My point is that since this sort of stuff is entirely subjective, it's just arrogant to walk around saying that your way is best for everyone. There are many paths to enlightenment. Your way may be right, but so can someone else's. Ever actually looked behind the dogma the masses get stuck on in religion and see what it means? Surely many have. A lot of the underlying messages behind the rituals and practices are really saying the same thing in different ways.
And yeah, the Crusades that are officially sanctioned by the Church are over. Now we wage more ideological Crusades instead. In retrospect, that was pretty lame to even bring up, and I apologize. And there's a difference between helping someone lead a better life and trying to get them to follow your religion. Granted, some of the values you'll be trying to elicit will have some of a theological background, but again, many of them are universal.
#507
Posted 08 September 2005 - 10:48 AM
I know, I accidentally mashed them together. I didn't try to help them lead a better life to get them to believe, I did it because it is my belief that that is the right thing to do. I consider myself a bit of an annomolly in the Christian faith. I am not a God fearing person. I am only a God loving person. That is why I make attempts to lead my life by what I believe to be right.
"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto
Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
<a href="http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html" target="_blank">http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html</a>
#509
Posted 08 September 2005 - 12:26 PM
heres how i see things so far:
mnesymone, you said, "and since good is such a subjective thing, it is difficult to state that any entity is universally good or universally evil"
(and this seems to be the prevailing consent of most people here)
but to say good is subjective precludes the existence of god altogether. you seem to be saying (correct me if im wrong): since good is subjective, there can be no supreme judge(god), if there is no supreme judge, then christianity is wrong.
in essence, you are asking me to prove christianity under the premise that god does not exist. i refuse to attempt such an absurdity.
so what i am saying is: since there is a supreme judge, good is not subjective. if good is not subjective then christianity could be right.
and slade, acknowledging the christian viewpoint on morality is absolutely essential to my position, which is, as i stated, "that the christian god does exist and he is both benevolent and omnipotent."
i feel the debate needs to be split in two, the parts being, first, does a god exist? the second, if so, which religion best represents god?
for the record, i am not trying to convert anyone, im not even a christian, i just enjoy taking the underdog side of the debate, which seems to be the christian side. if anything, i am hoping, not to convince anyone of my beliefs, but to test the convictions of others. just for fun
This post has been edited by xenduck: 08 September 2005 - 12:31 PM
#510
Posted 10 September 2005 - 10:25 PM
Some dorks set up a massive server in the totem residence. It is the mecca of all things porn. EVEY THING is on it. They have all the bangbus installments along with every Jenna Jamison and Miko Lee films.
Not to mention the sever also holds the most fucked up Japanese porn I've ever paid witness too. I'm talking about strangulation (sp?) and crazy ass rape scenes, public fondling, and pissing.
I don't live in totem any more but when I did I had access to all the porn on the planet.
This post has been edited by Jordan: 10 September 2005 - 10:26 PM