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One of the things I hate the most with ROTS About a major plot hole.

#1 User is offline   toadape Icon

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 08:53 AM

Ok... This may have been posted before, if so. Please send me the link to that post and I'll be happy to continue over there...


The one thing I hated the most with the last chapter of PT is how it screws up a New Hope when Obi-Wan give Luke his fathers lightsaber...

- Your father wanted to have this, when you were old enough. But your uncle wouldn't alove it.

Uhm, ok where excactly does Anakin say this to Obi-Wan, perhaps it's in a scene wich was deleted, just before Obi-Wan leaves Anakin to die he screams out to him

-My lighsaber, give it to my future son, when he is old enough, that is.... Thanks Obi!

A joke ofcourse, but if this scene were inprinted, it would leave a even more major plot hole :

Why the fuck didin't Anakin just go and visit his "routs" on Tattooinee in all this time between ROTS and ESB?

Damn, before the PT, you romantise the whole Anakin Skywalker story to be all this glamouros and still pretty anonymous at the same time, it was more like a "subtile" story pararell to the Birth of Empire story.

Thanks Lukas for destroying the old trilogy with your prequel-stupidity!

This post has been edited by toadape: 24 July 2005 - 08:54 AM

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 09:00 AM

Yeah, it's already been said.
[Fanboy] But isn't it possible that Anakin said it offscreen. And how dare you act like t he prequels were bad [/fanoy] But it really annoys me too.
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#3 User is offline   toadape Icon

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 09:06 AM

QUOTE (Otal Nimrodi @ Jul 24 2005, 02:00 PM)
Yeah, it's already been said.
[Fanboy] But isn't it possible that Anakin said it offscreen. And how dare you act like  t he prequels were bad [/fanoy] But it really annoys me too.




[Fanboy] And maybe he just didint feel like going to Tattooinee to see if the new disturbance in the force had something to do with his his unborn child wich he had given his lightsaber to, in proper age... Wich he said ofscreen ofcourse! [/Fanboy]
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Posted 24 July 2005 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE (toadape @ Jul 24 2005, 09:53 AM)
Ok... This may have been posted before, if so. Please send me the link to that post and I'll be happy to continue over there...
The one thing I hated the most with the last chapter of PT is how it screws up a New Hope when Obi-Wan give Luke his fathers lightsaber...

- Your father wanted to have this, when you were old enough. But your uncle wouldn't alove it.

Uhm, ok where excactly does Anakin say this to Obi-Wan, perhaps it's in a scene wich was deleted, just before Obi-Wan leaves Anakin to die he screams out to him

-My lighsaber, give it to my future son, when he is old enough, that is.... Thanks Obi!

A joke ofcourse, but if this scene were inprinted, it would leave a even more major plot hole :

Why the fuck didin't Anakin just go and visit his "routs" on Tattooinee in all this time between ROTS and ESB?

Damn, before the PT, you romantise the whole Anakin Skywalker story to be all this glamouros and still pretty anonymous at the same time, it was more like a "subtile" story pararell to the Birth of Empire story.

Thanks Lukas for destroying the old trilogy with your prequel-stupidity!


Good questions everyone.
The continuity between Ep 3 and A New Hope is so messed up here because when A New Hope was made they were following the original Clone Wars/Anakin Skywalker story. There was no Trade Federation non-sense, the Clones were the bad guys (Mandalorian Warriors) and were not future Stormtroopers, and Anakin's fall to the Dark Side and his battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi were very, very different than the crap we saw on screen in TPM-ROTS..

In the original version, which was partially written out by Lawerence Kasdan and George Lucas at the same time the Original Trilogy was being written, Anakin never knew he had a son (and later a daughter) and that's why he never bothered to search for Luke until he felt his prowess in the Force at the first Death Star Battle. Only then did he and the Emperor realize that Amidala (whose name was different in the original) must have had children and that the son was strong in the Force like the father.

Also in the old story, Obi-wan goes to find Anakin NOT to kill him, (how un-Jedi like is that?), but to try and bring him back from the Dark Side. Their epic duel took place on the rim of an active volcano (which I belive was supposed to be on Yavin 4) and Anakin's demise was very different as well. It went something like this -

It said that Anakin's main motivation for wanting to kill Obi-wan was because Palpatine (who had been secretly instructing him in the dark ways for several years behind Obi-wan's back) had led him to think that Obi-wan and Amidala were having an affair. Obi-wan did not want to fight with Anakin, but was eventually forced too due to Anakin's rage and aggressiveness. During their battle, the volcano began erupting and the cliff Anakin was standing on gave way and he began to fall into the caldera, dropping his lightsaber. Obi-wan jumped to the edge and caught his friend by the hand still tyring to convince Anakin that he could be saved. As Anakin dangles over the lava, he begins to come to his senses and reaches up for Obi-wan to take his free hand. But just then, he notices Obi-wan's saber lying close by on the cliff's edge. The Dark Side overcomes him once more and he pulls the lightsaber to him, slashing out at Obi-wan. Kenobi is forced to release his grip on Anakin to avoid having his head cut off. He watches in sorrow as Anakin holds his hateful gaze, disappearing into the fire and smoke far below. Believing Anakin is surely dead, Obi-wan reluctantly takes Anakin's lightsaber and returns home in shame to tell Yoda and Amidala how he has failed to bring Anakin back from evil, and back alive.

The reason Obi-wan took Luke to watch after and keep an eye on is because he felt guilty for not being able to save Anakin. Kenobi vowed not to let Anakin's son fall to the Dark Side as his father had. Amidala (who didn't die in child birth) took Leia to live on Alderaan with the Organas, where she passed away when Leia was about 4 years old (which is why Leia remebers her mother being "kind but sad" in RTOJ).

Why Lucas changed the storyline for the prequels to what we see now is anybody's guess, but I personally like the original story much, much better - and it at least connected the dots with A New Hope, ESB, and ROTJ since the backstory for these films was based on the original tale I very briefly wrote out above.
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Posted 24 July 2005 - 05:24 PM

"Your father would have wanted you to have this when you were old enough.....its your father's Light-Saber. Its the weapon of a Jedi, and he would have wanted you to have it, of course, Jedi aren't allowed to love or get married, both of which he did screwing things up for those of us who followed the rules, and you're also going to think there's something familiar about Dagobah where I'm sending you to get trained well after I go poof! even though Massa George didn't leave anything to suggest you were there, heck, your sister who is unknown to you so far should have an emotional attachment to the interior of the Tantive IV....."
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#6 User is offline   toadape Icon

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 05:49 PM

QUOTE (jerfus17 @ Jul 24 2005, 10:13 PM)
Good questions everyone.
The continuity between Ep 3 and A New Hope is so messed up here because when A New Hope was made they were following the original Clone Wars/Anakin Skywalker story. There was no Trade Federation non-sense, the Clones were the bad guys (Mandalorian Warriors) and were not future Stormtroopers, and Anakin's fall to the Dark Side and his battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi were very, very different than the crap we saw on screen in TPM-ROTS..

In the original version, which was partially written out by Lawerence Kasdan and George Lucas at the same time the Original Trilogy was being written, Anakin never knew he had a son (and later a daughter) and that's why he never bothered to search for Luke until he felt his prowess in the Force at the first Death Star Battle.  Only then did he and the Emperor realize that Amidala (whose name was different in the original) must have had children and that the son was strong in the Force like the father. 

Also in the old story, Obi-wan goes to find Anakin NOT to kill him, (how un-Jedi like is that?), but to try and bring him back from the Dark Side.  Their epic duel took place on the rim of an active volcano (which I belive was supposed to be on Yavin 4) and Anakin's demise was very different as well.  It went something like this -

It said that Anakin's main motivation for wanting to kill Obi-wan was because Palpatine (who had been secretly instructing him in the dark ways for several years behind Obi-wan's back) had led him to think that Obi-wan and Amidala were having an affair.  Obi-wan did not want to fight with Anakin, but was eventually forced too due to Anakin's rage and aggressiveness.  During their battle, the volcano began erupting and the cliff Anakin was standing on gave way and he began to fall into the caldera, dropping his lightsaber.  Obi-wan jumped to the edge and caught his friend by the hand still tyring to convince Anakin that he could be saved.  As Anakin dangles over the lava, he begins to come to his senses and reaches up for Obi-wan to take his free hand.  But just then, he notices Obi-wan's saber lying close by on the cliff's edge.  The Dark Side overcomes him once more and he pulls the lightsaber to him, slashing out at Obi-wan.  Kenobi is forced to release his grip on Anakin to avoid having his head cut off.  He watches in sorrow as Anakin holds his hateful gaze, disappearing into the fire and smoke far below.  Believing Anakin is surely dead, Obi-wan reluctantly takes Anakin's lightsaber and returns home in shame to tell Yoda and Amidala how he has failed to bring Anakin back from evil, and back alive.

The reason Obi-wan took Luke to watch after and keep an eye on is because he felt guilty for not being able to save Anakin.  Kenobi vowed not to let Anakin's son fall to the Dark Side as his father had.  Amidala (who didn't die in child birth) took Leia to live on Alderaan with the Organas, where she passed away when Leia was about 4 years old (which is why Leia remebers her mother being "kind but sad" in RTOJ).

Why Lucas changed the storyline for the prequels to what we see now is anybody's guess, but I personally like the original story much, much better - and it at least connected the dots with A New Hope, ESB, and ROTJ since the backstory for these films was based on the original tale I very briefly wrote out above.


STILL, your father wanted you to have this when your were old enough - Is still a plothole tough he never says it or even knows about his offpsrings in the OPT.
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Posted 26 July 2005 - 11:32 AM

QUOTE
It said that Anakin's main motivation for wanting to kill Obi-wan was because Palpatine (who had been secretly instructing him in the dark ways for several years behind Obi-wan's back) had led him to think that Obi-wan and Amidala were having an affair. Obi-wan did not want to fight with Anakin, but was eventually forced too due to Anakin's rage and aggressiveness. During their battle, the volcano began erupting and the cliff Anakin was standing on gave way and he began to fall into the caldera, dropping his lightsaber. Obi-wan jumped to the edge and caught his friend by the hand still tyring to convince Anakin that he could be saved. As Anakin dangles over the lava, he begins to come to his senses and reaches up for Obi-wan to take his free hand. But just then, he notices Obi-wan's saber lying close by on the cliff's edge. The Dark Side overcomes him once more and he pulls the lightsaber to him, slashing out at Obi-wan. Kenobi is forced to release his grip on Anakin to avoid having his head cut off. He watches in sorrow as Anakin holds his hateful gaze, disappearing into the fire and smoke far below. Believing Anakin is surely dead, Obi-wan reluctantly takes Anakin's lightsaber and returns home in shame to tell Yoda and Amidala how he has failed to bring Anakin back from evil, and back alive.


The more I learn about the "original" treatment of the prequels, the sadder I am that these movies never got made. This would have been an excellent scene.

One wonders if Lucas had just gotten sick of "Star Wars" and was subconciously trying to undermine the OT.
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Posted 26 July 2005 - 12:49 PM

Why would Darth Vader go to Tatooine? There's a good reason we never see Vader visit Tatooine. Think of how hot it would be in that suit!

I don't really have too much trouble believing Obi-Wan would make up the thing about Anakin wanting Luke to have the saber. However it would have been cool if Vader had told Obi-Wan to give it to his son in a circumstance where it looked like Obi-Wan would leave Vader to die.
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#9 User is offline   jerfus17 Icon

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 04:43 PM

QUOTE (toadape @ Jul 25 2005, 06:49 PM)
STILL, your father wanted you to have this when your were old enough - Is still a plothole tough he never says it or even knows about his offpsrings in the OPT.


Hmmm .. I always thought Obi-wan told Luke - "Your father would have wanted you to have this, when you were old enough ...." but I just watched the tape (cause I refuse to buy the Special Edition only DVD set) and it does say "wanted" only. I tend to agree with Chefelf's idea here about Obi-wan lying to Luke - since it did seem like Obi-wan was desperate to have Luke accompany him to Alderaan -"getting to old for this sort of thing", etc.

Still, Old prequel storyline or New, it does appear to be another plothole - chalk another one up on the board. wink.gif
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Posted 26 July 2005 - 04:46 PM

Man things like this ruin this movie for me.
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Posted 26 July 2005 - 05:38 PM

QUOTE (toadape @ Jul 25 2005, 05:49 PM)
STILL, your father wanted you to have this when your were old enough - Is still a plothole tough he never says it or even knows about his offpsrings in the OPT.


This is probably because back when Lucas was making the original Star Wars, he had no idea that Vader was going to be Luke's father.

I doubt Lucas would ever admit that, but I'm 1000 percent convinced this was the case.
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Posted 26 July 2005 - 10:01 PM

QUOTE (snaithbert @ Jul 26 2005, 10:38 PM)
This is probably because back when Lucas was making the original Star Wars, he had no idea that Vader was going to be Luke's father.

I doubt Lucas would ever admit that, but I'm 1000 percent convinced this was the case.


I believe that is tha case also.

Funny tough, how great Alec Guiness is as an actor, even tough he prob. didint know at this time that Anakin is Darth or that HE is actually the one that sorts of cuts of the last part of Anakin that was human, he still reacts like it is hard to him to bring up. He has to think, "sort the storyline in his head" so he don't tell Luke to earlie about his fathers true destiny... its just great perfomance, cos we prob new that kind of reaction that he makes upon the question of Ankins death, would be perfect in any sense the OT would evolve, or the PT for that matter. Ehm... You know?

This post has been edited by toadape: 26 July 2005 - 10:05 PM

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 10:09 PM

QUOTE (Revan-47 @ Jul 26 2005, 09:46 PM)
Man things like this ruin this movie for me.


Hey, just close your eyes, pretend that the PT never existed... Forget all about the stupid midichloreans (or what the hell it is spelled). Forgett about the idiotic plothole younglins, and just imagine the romantic (not sexual in anyway) version of Anakin and the old republic, the one that we had in our minds before these dreadful prequels.
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Posted 26 July 2005 - 10:15 PM

QUOTE (jerfus17 @ Jul 26 2005, 09:43 PM)
Hmmm .. I always thought Obi-wan told Luke - "Your father would have wanted you to have this, when you were old enough ...." but I just watched the tape (cause I refuse to buy the Special Edition only DVD set) and it does say "wanted" only.  I tend to agree with Chefelf's idea here about Obi-wan lying to Luke - since it did seem like Obi-wan was desperate to have Luke accompany him to Alderaan -"getting to old for this sort of thing", etc. 

Still, Old prequel storyline or New, it does appear to be another plothole - chalk another one up on the board. wink.gif


Good for you! As for me, I got mine on my birthday this year, so... I didint have the hearth to reject it. But still, I have my old vhs version that I bought somewere around... I dunno, 1995 or something. They gave out this new "restored" orginal versions of the trilogy in scandinavia, have no idea if they did the same in the rest of the world... Anyway, they are SO much better.

I hate people that call us originaltrilogy lovers pretentios and ignorant. To them I say -Fuck off. I dont believe CGI makes the movie... It is called S C R E E N P L A Y, D I A L O G U E and S T O R Y L I N E. Sigh...

I cry everyfucking time I see the new edited dialogue in Empire Strikes Back (Best Episode)... Its so pathetic and sad.

This post has been edited by toadape: 26 July 2005 - 10:16 PM

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 11:34 PM

Don't see how this is a plothole at considering how much of what Kenobi told Luke about his fathers past in ANH was later revealed to be completely untrue.
As someone on another board said, I don't see how Anakin's
"Heres my lightsabre Obi-Wan. I'm going to the dark side now."
was ever going to work that well.

QUOTE (toadape @ Jul 27 2005, 01:01 PM)
Funny tough, how great Alec Guiness is as an actor, even tough he prob. didint know at this time that Anakin is Darth or that HE is actually the one that sorts of cuts of the last part of Anakin that was human, he still reacts like it is hard to him to bring up. He has to think, "sort the storyline in his head" so he don't tell Luke to earlie about his fathers true destiny... its just great perfomance, cos we prob new that kind of reaction that he makes upon the question of Ankins death, would be perfect in any sense the OT would evolve, or the PT for that matter. Ehm... You know?


Very true.
And Jerfus where did you get that original treatment for the prequels info from. Sounds intriguing.
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