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Batman Begins Review

#46 User is offline   Supes Icon

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 11:40 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Jun 27 2005, 08:48 PM)
Spoilers spoilers spoilers

(ie you're reading this only because you've already seen the film)

I went in knowing little other than that this was not going to be Batman: Year One.  Right away however, I started to put some things together.  I knew the League of Shadows was going to be the point of the film once they introduced it: Ra's al Ghul is too minor a Batman villain to be given more than one movie.  So, ok, I thought, this is really not going to be Year One.  Fine.


I completely agree with all the points you've outlined Civ. I'm a big Bat-fan and saw all these things play out on the screen and noted each one. However, I also made sure I went into the film prepared for divergences from what I knew to be Bat-fact. I wnted to make sure that I watched this movie asa movie goer and not just a Bat-fan. I wanted to see how I liked this movie as someone who maybe didn't know anything about Batman. As such I loved this film. I really think it does justice to the character of Batman and that for me was the real thing I was lookingfor out of the film.

It certainly would be great if they had followed the Year One a little more effectively and your Sin City example is a great analogy. I will be interested to see how this looks when it hits the screens here. I have a feeling it will work extremely well.

But all-in-all this film, comic story background aside, really is a fantastic ride and well worth the price of admission.
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#47 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 04:14 AM

QUOTE
Nothing happened for character; everything was there to service the plot. Even the strange blue flower and the fight-your-fear training sequence had to play out in the final act.


What do you mean by service the plot? Isn't the plot the whole story? Don't characters affect the plot. Or is character plot different than plot plot? yikes!
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Posted 02 July 2005 - 05:53 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Jun 28 2005, 01:48 AM)
[size=7]Katie Holmes, the most pointless superhero love interest since Nicole Kidman.  And yes, did they do it?  Did they have Batman reveal his secret identity to her?  You bet, and what is worse is why: he did it just in case they didn't survive the night, in case they all died and Gotham was destroyed.  When did Batman become so hopeless?  A couple of minor villains like the Scarecrow and Ra's al Ghul are terrorizing the city with some panic gas, and he despairs?  Never mind all that of course: add Rachel Dawes to the long list of folks in this film who know or who ought to know Batman's identity, a list that includes Morgan Freeman, Falcone, and the entire League of Shadows.[/color]


Although I'm not quite the knowingly fan you are, I agree on Katie Holmes being quite the pointless love act... I would even say, why insert romantic stuff that only serves the same purpose over and over again and, quite some times, adds nothing to the movie?
Pfff. Besides, she did spoke from the corner of her mouth. dry.gif .

And yeah, it's not quite the secret identity with all those people knowing who is Batman. Oh well.
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#49 User is offline   Icey Icon

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 06:49 AM

Caine and Freeman you can understand getting to know who Batman is, but by fuck! Waste of time Katie is just playing with fire while you've been put on gasoline. You would think he'd learn after bumping into the Scarecrow.
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#50 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 02:52 PM

QUOTE (Jordan @ Jul 2 2005, 04:14 AM)
What do you mean by service the plot? Isn't the plot the whole story?  Don't characters affect the plot.  Or is character plot different than plot plot? yikes!

"Story" is everything that happens, including character backgrounds and motivation.

"Plot" is the structure of a narrative, and the order in which the events are presented.

My complaint about BB is that no detail is there for story or for character; everything that is included is included because it will be used later. For instance: the Depression is caused by the League of Shadows; the Depression causes Joe Chill to commit his desperate crime; Falcone has Chill killed so Wayne can embark on a self-destructive quest; Ra's meets Bruce on this quest; the blue flower is not some symbolic detail, it contains a toxin that enhances fear; Rachel Dawes, Bruce's childhood sweetheart, has a personal enemy, a pscychologist who is also a scarecrow who works for Falcone but who secretly also works for Ra's; Scarecrow's fear toxin is derived from that same blue flower; etc; etc; etc.

Batman has a history in comic books that spans 60 years. There is a lot to draw from, and the screenwriters instead settled on the "everything is related" theme that drives pretty much all superhero movies (except the original SUPERMAN), and the recent set of STAR WARS movies. I would have preferred a plot that allowed a few things to occur, a few stray moments, that had nothing to do with the central line. Heck, even SPIDERMAN had the sense to keep the Ben Parker story away from the Green Goblin (mostly).

While I'm ranting, I don't remember even a stray superhero moment, like Batman nabs the purse snatcher or Batman gets the kitten out of the tree. First we see him, he's right away fighting Falcone's men. Plot, plot, plot.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#51 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 08:10 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 29 2005, 01:00 AM)
Dude Rutger Hauer is a B movie actor I'm sorry. He starred in Dutch pornography at teh begining of his career and worse yet he was in movies like Blood of Heroes and other crapfests, though they are funny. He's even starred in an MST3K film.


your mom!!!

Bladerunner, the Hitcher, Flesh and Blood, Ladyhawke, Blind Fury...

say what you like about any of those films (except Bladerunner, i'll fuck you up if put shit on that) , but his performance was awsome in all...

he doesn't get the best or most parts in good films but he's a damn fine actor.

i'm sorry he's no Leonardo DiCaprio, Halle Berry, Jennifer Lopez, Hayden Christianson or any other young talentless box office smasher...

but seriously, don't judge people on the films they agree to but the performance they give.

perfect exapmle, Christopher Lee.

and also... teh du7ch pr0n is the height of entertainment i'll have you know thankyou very much good day to you sir!
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#52 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 12:03 PM

Even in his old age Hauer still has more physical presence than Leo Dicaprio and Hayden Christensen - and looks like he could still kick both their scrawny asses.

The only point any love interest in a superhero film seems to serve is fan service. Kim Basinger didn't have much to do in the 1989 Batman film.

Katie Holmes may not be much, but it was nice for once to see Batman falling for a brunette.

When Christian Bale put on the Batman costume, he reminded me of Val Kilmer in the much maligned 1995 film Batman Forever, at least in looks. I guess it's because they both have that square jawed matinee idol look.

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 26 July 2005 - 12:04 PM

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#53 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 27 July 2005 - 09:58 PM

i also liked the asshole rich kid millionaire appraoch to bruce wayne's public image.
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#54 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 02:42 PM

Everyone's really gotta get over this Year One love. I just picked it up a little while ago, and while I liked it, I was also very disappointed by it. Perhaps if it had been called, "Gordon - Year One," I would've liked it more, but it wasn't.

Year One suffers from the same problems as every single Batman movie. It shortchanges Bruce Wayne/Batman. You get one fabulous storyline involving Gordon, the only good cop in a bad town, a complex character with problems, not above temptation but able to face up to what he's done. It's a great story.

And then you get this half-assed attempt at a Batman origin story, made even more disappointing by the fact that it coincides with this wonderful Gordon origin story. We get that Batman has gone overseas for a while, he sees a Bat, decides to use that as a symbol, fights thugs, a crime boss, and boom, that's it. Oh yeah, and Selina Kyle, a hooker (has a character origin ever been as stupid and unnecessary as this one?) is inspired to use a cat as her symbol.

The one thing I liked about Year One was that it did show some troubles Batman had at the beginning, that he wasn't perfect as he basically was in the movie. But you know, a movie's 2 1/2 hours, and it showed the amazing training he received, so it was believeable.

Batman Begins got it right because Begins focused on the goddamn Batman! It showed what it need to about Gordon, not shortchanging his character, but not focusing on him either. It showed Thomas Wayne! It actually made Bruce's parents characters we cared about. We were actually sad when the Waynes died, and could relate so much better to Bruce than we could in any other incarnation of Batman, including Year One.

Were there flaws? Yeah. I agree with you that it was ridiculous that there were no coincidences. In a realistic world like this, there are some coincidences, and they should've left it like that. Bruce already had enough motivation without knowing that Ducard, in a way, killed his parents. That was silly.

However, no room for character? The entire first act of the movie was character. The bats, Bruce's relationship with his father, with Rachel, his trek across the earth. Were some of these used later? Yes, but that doesn't mean that their importance earlier diminishes. It just means they had two purposes, one for character and story, and one for plot, which is fine, if at times, like I mentioned above, unnecessary.

But were the flaws forgiveable? Of course they were! This is a great piece of filmmaking, that has action without becoming an action movie, and that focuses on Bruce Wayne, in a great performance by Bale. Year One did a great job of introducing a new tone to the Batman series, and setting up a great supporting character in Gordon. But it failed in characterizing Batman the way he deserved to be characterized.

Begins set up a great supporting cast, but never forgot where the focus was. As a Batman origin story, Begins blows Year One out of the water. It's not an adaptation of Year One, as you said. It's an improvement.

Oh, also I liked the villain reveal at the end of Begins to be done better than in Year One, though Year One's reveal was still very cool. But that's extremely minor.
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#55 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 06:55 PM

Points taken, Vwing, though I disagree with pretty much every complaint about Year One, which I still think is awesome.

I think that all of the "character detail" of Bruce trekking around the world to learn to fight crime, ie Falcone, is more or less shortchanged when a. Falcone is defeated by a minor villain instead of by Batman, and b. when the purpose of the Trek is not to develop Batman's character, but to introduce another villain (and, as it happens, the monor villain as well oi!). Of curse, I have already said all that.
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Posted 28 July 2005 - 09:59 PM

Though as a comic book villain Ra's Al Ghul is fairly minor, that doesn't mean the movie had to stick to the scripture of the comics. In the end Al Ghul had his share of famous Batman moments (the choice between Robin and the lover in Batman Forever comes from Al Ghul) and I think it is better to give elevate a villain who was 'one of many' than it is to push down villains - in Forever Two-face is a nonentity, playing the sidekick to Riddler, while Bane, the only villain to best Batman at strategy and strength, is reduced to a mindless thug in that bloody awful movie. Much more refreshing to see Scarecrow and Al Ghul have the room they need in this.
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Posted 29 July 2005 - 04:05 AM

Hmm. I was waiting for some of the more rabid fanboyism to die down before posting here, but it seems to have started up again.

Without reading too many other posts in this thread, I'll just say here that this film actually fucked with me on a very basic level. Walking out of the theatre, I was half-stunned, and listening to people around me going, "Oh yeah, and when he jumped from the room and his wings shot out, and when the scarecrow had his mask, and SO COOL," I kind of got the impression of having seen a different film.

Sure, the film was a big Batman fanboy tribute. It had awesome explosions and scary dark stuff, and interesting takes on old characters. But what really got me was the theme about 'fear'. It's been a month or so now, and I always forget most of films about a week after I've seen them, so I can't really give an indepth analysis or anything, as far as I'm concerned, the film was all about fear, and it used one of my favourite kickass superheroes to portray it.

Batman becomes who he is by harnessing his fear and packing it all down inside, and using it as a raw resource, bringing it out when he needs it and converting it into something that drives him. Scarecrow, in his own twisted way, does something similar. The scene where Bruce is standing in the cave and a million bats swarm around him, and he's just standing there, letting the fear consume him, and he's *relishing* it... that really got me. Without going too much into personal crap to do with my own head, it's a method I use often, to the extent where it's almost my life philosophy. Minus the bats.

So yeah. Wow. I was stumbling around going, "Dude," for like fifteen minutes after I saw this, and when I finally started talking about it, I didn't stop for about two hours.

Also, the training sequence. where Bruce's senses are distorted and fucked by the drug and all the ninjas are hiding Laim Neeson. fucked with me to the point where it almost brought on a panic attack.

And Gordon was awesome. Just awesome. A skinny, ratty, bespectacled wiry dude in a stupid moustache and a stupid jacket, whom no one really takes seriously, but is nevertheless still fighting a lone battle to stay honest and do what he thinks is right, even thought he knows he's losing. Best portrayal ever.
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#58 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 10 August 2005 - 10:30 AM

Word is that new special edition Batman DVD's will be released in October, I forget the exact day, and all will feature director commentaries by Tim Burton and Joel Schumacher, interviews with the actors, and a whole mess of other behind the scenes making-of stuff.

Certainly has taken them long enough... the only special features on the current Batman DVDs are the flipside options for widescreen or full screen and an alternate French language track, which really bites.
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#59 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 06:48 PM

It has been awhile since I have seen the movie, but on the whole I thoroughly enjoyed it.
The review was great, and helped me remember things better.

sad.gif The things that made it tough for me to like were:

-Not hearing the line "Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moon light?" Unfortunately I did not know that they were starting on a clean slate.
-They were robbed outside of an opera house. Operas are what rich people usually go to. There was no security at the place and the area around it was slummy.
-The Scarecrow was kind of a wuss. Don't get me wrong, I loved the acting and I know the Scarecrow has almost always been that way, but it let me down a little.
-No coincidences at all.
-The bit at the end where the 1 guy at Wayne Tower is explaining what could happen. I thought that the lines were decent, but horribly delivered.
-The love interest. Not awful, but it really didn't help the movie. There doesn't always have to be a love interest you know.
-The music on the whole was good, but it wasn't anything memorable. Music can help make a movie shine.
-Lipstick on Batman
-His face looks almost like Val in the suit

smile.gif What I did like (with smilies):
-The Cast wub.gif wub.gif wub.gif just awe inspiring
-Getting back to a darker Gotham thumbsup.gif
-Batman didn't play second fiddle to the villains cool.gif
-Many of the other good things already pointed out by people on this thread. biggrin.gif

For the next ones:
-The Villains MUST be redone from the old films, but how will anyone top Jack's performance as the Joker? Maybe leave out the Penguin, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, and Bane. Must add Holly for the Joker. Have to do an excellent job for Catwoman, in light of the recent movie.
-Having the villains be dark characters that went down the path Bruce Wayne deviated from is so much better than a comedy.
-No lipstick
-Less love interest oriented, unless they can do an excellent job
-Coincidences
-Keep up the good work

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 18 August 2005 - 06:49 PM

Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

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#60 User is offline   Kirby Icon

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 10:01 PM

I dunno, Holly would be a good second villan in the third movie, but when you're introducing Joker you need to focus on him.

But Holly and the Joker has always had an interesting relationship and if the people at hollywood can do it right (IE show the Joker as a abusive jackass and Holly as an obsessed fangirl) it could be the perfect romance.
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