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Hayden At The End Of ROTJ

#16 User is offline   Darth Sane Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 06:02 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ May 25 2005, 02:02 PM)
Anakin retains his form from pre-dark side i.e circa ep3.


Jaritan, this is very convenient but it ruines the whole message about the power of the good to "redeem" the bad and negates all character development in the way of post-dark anakin skywalker. chefelf articulated this perfectly in his "reasons" column. Think about it. By having a young anikin in the afterlife you are implying that all the evil actions of vader were in no way linked to anakin. but anakin does not have two souls. Vader=anakin. Is GL implying that "oops, its too late, even though you have come back to the good your entire adult life must be erased and you must live (in the afterlife) as before you turned evil. that is like ignoring all the struggle and courage it took for the adult anakin to triumph over the darkside within himself. It completely ruines the message. It is simply one of GL's stupid slapps in the face to remind us that the god awfull PT is somehow related to OT.
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#17 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 07:48 PM

(thus my death bed redemption remark)

but, yeah...

what did he have a saved game or something? :yuck:
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#18 User is offline   A Link to the Past Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 08:19 PM

Maybe George Lucas told him he looked totally hawt in that outfit.
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#19 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 01:51 AM

QUOTE (Supes @ May 26 2005, 09:58 PM)
It tells me that Hayden is a little gullible if he didn't know why he was filming a sequence in an outfit that he at no stage wore during the filming of the prequels and did not include any of the current actors.


AFAIK the scene is taken from haydens Audition tapes, so Hayden was never told where it would be, nor had much reason to suspect it would be in the movie. Lucas just told him to wear some clothes and look a certain way, and Hayden did - because that's what you do in auditions.
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#20 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 07 June 2005 - 10:18 PM

Why that makes perfect sense, and in an unquestionable sort of way.
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#21 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 03:24 PM

QUOTE (Veer @ Jun 1 2005, 01:51 AM)
AFAIK the scene is taken from haydens Audition tapes, so Hayden was never told where it would be, nor had much reason to suspect it would be in the movie. Lucas just told him to wear some clothes and look a certain way, and Hayden did - because that's what you do in auditions.


Even though that explanation sure sounds tempting, I'm not sure I buy it. Look at his hair, that's the same haircut he has in ROTS is it not? I didn't know he had long hair like that all the time (going into an audition he wouldn't have had time to grow it out and style it that way would he?).

I'm sure it was filmed during the production of ROTS. Whether or not it was at Hayden's request (he begged and begged Lucas to be inside the suit and wearing the helmet) or Lucas's demand, that's something else.
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#22 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:05 AM

QUOTE (Veer @ Jun 1 2005, 01:51 AM)
AFAIK the scene is taken from haydens Audition tapes, so Hayden was never told where it would be, nor had much reason to suspect it would be in the movie. Lucas just told him to wear some clothes and look a certain way, and Hayden did - because that's what you do in auditions.


so what's morrisons excuse?
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#23 User is offline   Trigormike Icon

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 05:34 AM

That redone scene is a total mistake. Now Luke now sees his father younger than he is.
Hayden looks like a complete nutter because he can't work out if he's supposed to be looking serious or jovial. To make sure he does both of them.
At least there was a warmth from Sebastian Shaw, and having all aged characters together gelled well and signified their era had come to an end.
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#24 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 09:11 PM

When I initially heard about Hayden at the end of Jedi and saw the screenshots, I disliked the idea intensely. When I actually watched the scene in the context of the movie, I was surprised to find that I liked it.

I submit the following (copied and pasted from another post of mine elsewhere in the forum) as an argument in favor of the change, just to play devil's advocate:

A force ghost seems to be some part of the psyche that endures, therefore its appearance is probably based on the self-image that the deceased had when he was still alive. Obi-wan and Yoda grew old, and they accepted their aged bodies as their appearance long before death. Anakin never really had this, because he was mangled and deformed at a young age. His last real self-image as a Jedi was of his young body.

Why would the force ghost suddenly look like his body *as it would have appeared* at that age without deformity? Anakin never saw what his aged body would have looked like; he had no self-image of himself older without the mutilations.

It does make sense logically to see the younger body. The only reason to protest against Hayden's inclusion is if you think he did a poor job of portraying young Vader and/or feel that Lucas should stop trying to link his old classics with his inferior new films.

However, I find that Hayden did a very good job in ROTS, particularly when he was facing the camera at the end, howling about how he had "brought peace to my new empire!" It felt right. I was glad to see that same form redeemed at the end of Jedi.
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#25 User is offline   Thracozaag Icon

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 06:59 AM

QUOTE (Trigormike @ Jun 14 2005, 05:34 AM)
That redone scene is a total mistake. Now Luke now sees his father younger than he is.
Hayden looks like a complete nutter because he can't work out if he's supposed to be looking serious or jovial. To make sure he does both of them.
At least there was a warmth from Sebastian Shaw, and having all aged characters together gelled well and signified their era had come to an end.


I agree completely; the ending now seems.....cheap.

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#26 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 07:12 AM

How was Luke supposed to know that it is a younger Anakin??? That is why this scene is completely stupid.

For sure on having seen young Anakin he would have thought "wait a minute, and who are you, exactly?" He was able to recognise Sebastian Shaw from under the Vader's mask, because I was able to do that too, but there is no way that he would have recognised this young whippersnapper with Princess Diana haricut and smile.

Hm, I think I had a bit of a problem with tenses in this post. unsure.gif
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#27 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 07:41 AM

QUOTE
How was Luke supposed to know that it is a younger Anakin??? That is why this scene is completely stupid.

I didn't even realise that!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man, Lucas is such an idiot. I think erasing one actor and placing in a new on is the ultiamte crime in motion picutures.

It's just so f'in low. Adding Jabba and Boba Fett is bad. Replacing Anakin with an actor we all hope to soon forget is the ultimate slap in the face. For those of us who wanted to not consider PT cannon, we're now going to have all the memories of Hayden playing Anakin, something we don't want.... ever!

And why didn't OB1 turn in to Ewan? I'll tell you why, because he was an established actor, and Lucas would never cross that line. But he would for small time guys, what a bully.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 17 June 2005 - 07:44 AM

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#28 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 12:57 PM

QUOTE (DarthTherion @ Jun 16 2005, 10:11 PM)
A force ghost seems to be some part of the psyche that endures, therefore its appearance is probably based on the self-image that the deceased had when he was still alive. Obi-wan and Yoda grew old, and they accepted their aged bodies as their appearance long before death. Anakin never really had this, because he was mangled and deformed at a young age. His last real self-image as a Jedi was of his young body.

Why would the force ghost suddenly look like his body *as it would have appeared* at that age without deformity? Anakin never saw what his aged body would have looked like; he had no self-image of himself older without the mutilations.


Hmmm, no one responded. I guess I'll have to debate myself.

DarthTherion2: Really good point, DT1, I never thought about it that way. However, notice that the bodies of the Jedi disappear before they become Force ghosts. This implies that the Force is somehow transforming their physical forms, which would mean that how they look (not how they *think* they look) contributes to the appearance of the ghost. Knowing Lucas, he was probably borrowing the "glorified body" idea from Christianity.

DarthTherion1: Hey, DT2 -- that's a really excellent counter-argument. I may have to rethink my point. But note that Vader's body doesn't disappear. In his case, the transformation may hinge much more on his psyche, especially given his newly-redeemed consciousness and the extent of his physical injuries.
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Why wouldn't Luke understand that Hayden is his father? Who else would appear next to Yoda and Obi-wan? I know Luke is slow, but c'mon....

Luke never knew what his father looked like. It's not immediately obvious that the older man standing there is the same actor who was under the Vader helmet in the death scene (well, not to me anyway). I always thought Luke makes the very logical assumption (as the audience does) that the man standing there is Vader.

Does anyone notice that by the end of the six movies, we have three Sith who have been completely destroyed (Maul, Tyrannous, and Sideous) and three Jedi who endure? Balance.
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#29 User is offline   Hari Seldon Icon

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 01:47 PM

QUOTE (Cyclonian @ May 26 2005, 08:48 PM)
Simply put, it was a bad idea. Hayden didnt even know about it so what does that tell you?


Tells me that there were, proooobably, too many scenes shot in front of blue screens! wink.gif
"I prefer rationalism to atheism. The question of God and other objects-of-faith are outside reason and play no part in rationalism, thus you don't have to waste your time in either attacking or defending."

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#30 User is offline   Thracozaag Icon

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 04:51 PM

QUOTE (DarthTherion @ Jun 17 2005, 12:57 PM)
Does anyone notice that by the end of the six movies, we have three Sith who have been completely destroyed (Maul, Tyrannous, and Sideous) and three Jedi who endure? Balance.



Oh goodie!! The Prophecy is fulfilled!!! rolleyes.gif

koji
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