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Han Solo shooting at Vader in ESB Why isn't THAT attempted murder?

#1 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 11:05 PM

George Lucas changed the scene in "A New Hope" where Han shot Greedo under the table twice - once to make it look like Greedo shot first and again to make it look like they shot at the same time. Why? George says he didn't want Han to come across as a murderer.

Then we get to "The Empire Strikes Back". When the doors open and we see Darth Vader sitting at the head of the table, Han whips out his blaster and starts shooting at him, only to have his shots bounce off of Vader's hands. Though the epitome of evil, Vader didn't take any aggressive action towards Han, but Han shoots at him anyway. So if its murder for Han to shoot Greedo under the table (when Greedo so clearly wanted to waste Han), why isn't it murder when Han shoots at Vader (who wasn't really doing anything except occupying the physical space)? I'm amazed really that George didn't alter it to have Vader flinging stuff at Han with Han simply shooting the debris being thrown at him as opposed to actually shooting at Vader.
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#2 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 11:18 PM

good point.

tell lucas so he can add it to his 'too do' list...
for the next batch of cast-iron teddy-bear reconstructed to not match your childhood editions.
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#3 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 10:08 AM

I fully agree with you. But I seriously doubt that anyone in the world would have thought of Han's actions as 'murder'. If I were a soldier or somebody on the run from a major terrorist and ended up being tricked and getting into a room with him to get caputured, I, too, would just draw out my gun and blast away at him.
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#4 User is offline   Hannibal Icon

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 02:26 PM

QUOTE
If I were a soldier or somebody on the run from a major terrorist


HAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I just had a moment of....ah...well...you'll never understand...

this Han Solo murder thing is nothing more than George Lucas worrying about the morality of his movies.

by 2010, he will have altered the trilogy to the point where Boba Fett comes off as sacrificing himself to the sarlacc pitt to save Han and Luke because of how popular he has become, and the scene where Leia MURDERS Jabba the Hutt will also be completely changed, with Jabba wielding a weapon, flailing his little arms and audio dubbed 'i will kill you little witch' in hUttese, with subtitles, so that it doesn't APPEAR that Leia strangles him to death for no other reason than REVENGE.
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities."
~ Voltaire (1694-1778)


Enjoy this Tribute to Nazism...(Mp3)
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#5 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 03:40 PM

QUOTE
HAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I just had a moment of....ah...well...you'll never understand...


Yeah, yeah, I can tell what you're laughting at, no need to hide anything from me! innocent.gif rolleyes.gif
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#6 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 05:06 PM

QUOTE (Paladin @ Mar 22 2005, 04:08 PM)
I fully agree with you. But I seriously doubt that anyone in the world would have thought of Han's actions as 'murder'. If I were a soldier or somebody on the run from a major terrorist and ended up being tricked and getting into a room with him to get caputured, I, too, would just draw out my gun and blast away at him.

Agreed. It was entirely sensible of Han to shoot first in that instance, and it was equally sensible of him to shoot first in his encounter with Greedo, given that he knew the guy was preparing to shoot him. The idea that Greedo could actually have missed him is simply insane; a half-blind toddler could have hit Han from that distance. Even I could have hit him from that distance.
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The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

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Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

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#7 User is offline   Grand Moff Lebowski Icon

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 07:10 PM

I posted this a while back but it sums up the current topic well:

Lucas stated in the latest Entertainment Weekly that the Solo/Greedo shootout is a "correction" in the new editions. He claims it was always intended to be that way but he didn't have the proper footage to edit the scene together with. And I quote,

"We like to think of [Han Solo] as a murderer because that's hip-- I don't think that's a good thing for people. I mean, I don't see how you could redeem somebody who kills people in cold blood."

Right. Let's examine Lucas' track record on murder:

Princess Leia strangling Jabba is okay.
Han and Luke blasting two innocent technicians and stromtroopers as they ascend the Falcon ramp is acceptable.
And to break the genre a bit, Indians Jones blowing away the Swordsman is merely a calculating move on his part.

Plus, I'm sure, countless other examples in his movies of surprise attack death by a "good guy". Face it George, you are painting yourself in a far away corner.

I would like to close this out by adding that when Solo first sees Vader in EMPIRE, he pulls his piece and starts to open up on him like the badass smuggler he is. Is this acceptable or consistent thinking? And one last MAJOR point..."How could you redeem somebody who kills people in cold blood"? I don't know, George. Ask Anakin F-ing Skywalker!!!! He appears to be all "redeemed" at the end of Jedi. After a LIFETIME of murder, torture and horrible acting as a child.

AND ONE LAST POINT. What does Lucas think Solo was smuggling anyway? Cinnamon? I doubt it was fun treats for oppressed children in the Kessel system.

I'm sending this to Entertainment Weekly. God I wish someone with some constitution would interview this guy.
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#8 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 08:08 PM

QUOTE (lebowski @ Mar 22 2005, 07:10 PM)
I would like to close this out by adding that when Solo first sees Vader in EMPIRE, he pulls his piece and starts to open up on him like the badass smuggler he is. Is this acceptable or consistent thinking? And one last MAJOR point..."How could you redeem somebody who kills people in cold blood"? I don't know, George. Ask Anakin F-ing Skywalker!!!! He appears to be all "redeemed" at the end of Jedi. After a LIFETIME of murder, torture and horrible acting as a child.


the real question is how do you redeem somebody who is already a good guy?
you don't. they're already good. you know waht we call that? nothing.
a character without journey is just some guy doing stuff, not a story.

QUOTE
AND ONE LAST POINT. What does Lucas think Solo was smuggling anyway? Cinnamon? I doubt it was fun treats for oppressed children in the Kessel system.


as we say in convict land: "fuckin' oath!"

Han solo was no good guy. Lucasrses argument falls flatter than hannibals superiority complex... I mean solo wasn't exactly evil or anything, but he wasn't a bloody priest either.

smuggler, killer, gambler, "mercenary", and works for crime sindicates.
Han Solo was mafia material. he had less morals than half the characters in the sopranoes...

and he became general in the rebeillion against an evil empire.

take that away and you fuck the story.

This post has been edited by barend: 22 March 2005 - 08:09 PM

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#9 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 02:23 PM

QUOTE
Lucas stated in the latest Entertainment Weekly that the Solo/Greedo shootout is a "correction" in the new editions. He claims it was always intended to be that way but he didn't have the proper footage to edit the scene together with.


That is such a load of crap. I love how Lucas can lie, lie, lie and get away with it. I mean maybe it's true, but I would bet horseshoes to hand-grenades that it isn't.
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#10 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 06:55 PM

why did he never mention his painstaking greivence with the solo/greedo scene during the 20 fucking years soaking in the awe of success before changing it?

hmmm? anyone?

no? any defence there?

i thought not...
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#11 User is offline   SithAvenger Icon

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 07:41 PM

God damn it Lucas. I think that Lucas was infested by some virus after the release of ESB that made him unable to distinguish bad movies from good movies. Please don't let him insert digitally Jar Jar as one rebel fighter or to change dialogue from the '' I am your father'' scene.

DAMN YOU LUCAS!!!!!!

:angry: angry.gif

This post has been edited by SithAvenger: 09 June 2005 - 07:42 PM

Sorry, you won't be seeing a smartass sig here. Try with the next poster.
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#12 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 10 June 2005 - 02:21 PM

QUOTE (Lord Aquaman @ Mar 21 2005, 09:05 PM)
Then we get to "The Empire Strikes Back". When the doors open and we see Darth Vader sitting at the head of the table, Han whips out his blaster and starts shooting at him, only to have his shots bounce off of Vader's hands. Though the epitome of evil, Vader didn't take any aggressive action towards Han, but Han shoots at him anyway. So if its murder for Han to shoot Greedo under the table (when Greedo so clearly wanted to waste Han), why isn't it murder when Han shoots at Vader (who wasn't really doing anything except occupying the physical space)? I'm amazed really that George didn't alter it to have Vader flinging stuff at Han with Han simply shooting the debris being thrown at him as opposed to actually shooting at Vader.


Stand tune for the Really extra=special edition in which we will see Vader shoot force-lightnening at Han, who will block it with his blaster, before whipping out a lightsaber himself and proceding to go dou-on-dou with Vader.
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#13 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 07 September 2005 - 10:19 AM

QUOTE (Veer @ Jun 10 2005, 12:21 PM)
Stand tune for the Really extra=special edition in which we will see Vader shoot force-lightnening at Han, who will block it with his blaster, before whipping out a lightsaber himself and proceding to go dou-on-dou with Vader.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#14 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 07 September 2005 - 11:57 AM

QUOTE (barend @ Mar 22 2005, 12:18 AM)
good point.

tell lucas so he can add it to his 'too do' list...
for the next batch of cast-iron teddy-bear reconstructed to not match your childhood editions.


That statement just about sums it all up. With any luck he will just die and someone with some intelligence can fix things (And get better actors for some of the roles *cough* Anakin Skywalker *cough*)

Seriously, what the HELL made him go back and ruin things? Why does the PT suck compared to the Original OT? With the resources at his disposole, they should have come close to outshining them.

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 07 September 2005 - 11:58 AM

Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto

Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
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#15 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 07 September 2005 - 08:22 PM

QUOTE (Zatoichi @ Sep 7 2005, 09:57 AM)
That statement just about sums it all up.  With any luck he will just die and someone with some intelligence can fix things (And get better actors for some of the roles *cough* Anakin Skywalker *cough*)

Seriously, what the HELL made him go back and ruin things?  Why does the PT suck compared to the Original OT? With the resources at his disposole, they should have come close to outshining them.


Lucas is either mad or senial or perhaps both.
I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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