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Jedi Saber Battles Overdone

#1 User is offline   Grand Moff Lebowski Icon

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 01:34 AM

I would think that the fighting exhibited in the prequels amongst the JEdi is silly. Again,, cool it may be, however it didn't need to be so physically over the top. It would stand to reason, especially considering Yoda and his obvious limitations, that the better you are with the Force the less of your physical body you would need to use to fight. Two experienced Masters would possibly look like they were wagin a so-so battle with each other (ie Vader and Obi-Wan in EpIV) but underneath all that physical fighting lies the other battle of the Jedi powers constantly at odds with each other trying to throw the opponent off in many ways.

This would justify the Vader/Obi-Wan duel in Ep IV and legitimize Yoda as a Master to be reckoned with. The less experienced Jedi would be doing the fancy flips and jumping around while the Masters look on and laugh.

"Judge me, by my size do you"? Apparently so. Once you can't jump around so quickly anymore, you're a flaming marshmellow at the end of Dooku's stick. So stupid. So utterly, utterly stupid.
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#2 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 03:56 AM

Great points.

The battles in the PT are just a bunch of special effects extravaganza. They are utterly devoid of meaning (mostly, anyway) and have no emotion in them at all.

Can the battle between Darth Vader and Luke in ESB be called meaningless? It contained an enourmous amount of emotion, meaning, and, above all, it was remarkably relevant to the story. Luke learns his folly of trying to take on Vader, who intern reveals he is his father, and as such, creates a massive conflict and struggle within Luke that cannot be described in a few short sentences.

The battle bettwen Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul had no meaning... it wasn't even in the correct place. Darth Maul reveals himself in front of the doorway and, instead of ordering the soldiers to open fire on him (would would surely have taken care of the twerp), they decide to take him on hand-to-hand. It ends in a most suspense-free manner and the only thing that we get out of it is Qui-Gon making Obi-Wan promise to train Anakin. This totally destroys the original idea that Obi-Wan willing trained Anakin without anyone making him promise to do it.
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#3 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 11:59 AM

QUOTE (Paladin @ May 8 2005, 01:56 AM)
Great points.

The battles in the PT are just a bunch of special effects extravaganza. They are utterly devoid of meaning (mostly, anyway) and have no emotion in them at all.

Can the battle between Darth Vader and Luke in ESB be called meaningless? It contained an enourmous amount of emotion, meaning, and, above all, it was remarkably relevant to the story. Luke learns his folly of trying to take on Vader, who intern reveals he is his father, and as such, creates a massive conflict and struggle within Luke that cannot be described in a few short sentences.

The battle bettwen Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul had no meaning... it wasn't even in the correct place. Darth Maul reveals himself in front of the doorway and, instead of ordering the soldiers to open fire on him (would would surely have taken care of the twerp), they decide to take him on hand-to-hand. It ends in a most suspense-free manner and the only thing that we get out of it is Qui-Gon making Obi-Wan promise to train Anakin. This totally destroys the original idea that Obi-Wan willing trained Anakin without anyone making him promise to do it.


Well said, Paladin.

I wondered why the Masters - Chris Lee and Yoda - went from using the Force to fighting with sabers instead of going from fighting with sabers to using the Force.
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#4 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 12:53 PM

You got that right. I always did think about that battle between Yoda and Count Dooku (what a ridicules name!). To me, it was just special effects masturbation on part of Lucas. At first, I thought it was interesting to see Yoda fight... but only for the first ten minutes. Beyond that, I realized the folly and stupidity of it, and how it destroyed Yoda's character and how stupid it made the Jedi look.

I always thought that having a lot of force ability means being a better fighter. But I guess I'm wrong, and it seems to be that swordsmanship and the force are two different things.
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#5 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 10:59 PM

DOOKU: "I never could best you with a lightsaber, my old teacher-" [salutes Yoda, deactivates said weapon] "-but is the Force as strong with you now as it was then?"

YODA: "That we must see."

From here a series of throwing stuff around and Force-lightning starts.

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 08 May 2005 - 11:00 PM

I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#6 User is offline   Grand Moff Lebowski Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 12:53 AM

I expected something to happen in EP I when Liam Neeson and Maul were seperated by the barrier. Neeson nelt down to concentrate and Maul used his anger to fuel himself. Here I thought was a great opportunity to show us something we had not seen. Two Jedi battling it out without physical contact.

However, as it turned out, no such luck.
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#7 User is offline   Grand Moff Lebowski Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 01:05 AM

QUOTE (lebowski @ May 9 2005, 12:53 AM)
I expected something to happen in EP I when Liam Neeson and Maul were seperated by the barrier.  Neeson nelt down to concentrate and Maul used his anger to fuel himself.  Here I thought was a great opportunity to show us something we had not seen.  Two Jedi battling it out without physical contact.

However, as it turned out, no such luck.



DISCALIMER--
I dislike the name and character of QuiGon Jin so much I refure to say, type or refere to him as anything but Liam Neeson.
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#8 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 01:57 AM

QUOTE (Lord Aquaman @ May 8 2005, 11:59 AM)
Well said, Paladin.

I wondered why the Masters - Chris Lee and Yoda - went from using the Force to fighting with sabers instead of going from fighting with sabers to using the Force.


Essentially the battle did end with going from sabers to using the Force. Dooku used the Force in the midst of a saber lock to attempt to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan, which temporarily distracted Yoda and allowed him to escape.

Although Dooku does say "It is obvious this contest cannot be settled by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a light saber", I believe he only said it so he could have Yoda focus on a light saber duel rather than using the Force (which Yoda was clearly better at), and that distraction would ultimately allow Dooku to escape. But if you ask me, I think Dooku could have defeated Yoda in a light saber duel anyways.

I think the fight was staged to show a major weakness of the Jedi, which again ultimately leads to their doom. Jedi are not supposed to have any emotional attachment. Although Yoda specifically states that they cannot allow Dooku to escape with the plans at all costs, his emotional attachment for Obi-Wan and Anakin is what allows Dooku to escape. I also believe his emotional attachment is what made it so difficult for Yoda to stop the pillar from falling, or from doing the simpler thing of just pushing the two out of the way. I don't think Yoda is supposed to be a wise Jedi Master in the Prequels. His 30 years in exhile on Degobah contemplating his horrible mistakes is what eventually made him so wise.
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#9 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:21 AM

Jedi are not supposed to have any emotional attachment.

Star Wars is not supposed to have to resort to such a tiresome cliche of fantasy fiction.

And Yoda didn't let Dooku escape because of emotional attachment; he let Dooku escape because he didn't think to waste ten f**king seconds using the Force to disable or destroy Dooku's ship so that Dooku wouldn't have an escape route.

That anyone can attach any significance whatever to a scene that exists solely as an ILM advertisement boggles my mind.
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#10 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:28 AM

QUOTE (Storm @ May 8 2005, 11:57 PM)
\ I don't think Yoda is supposed to be a wise Jedi Master in the Prequels.  His 30 years in exhile on Degobah contemplating his horrible mistakes is what eventually made him so wise.


That is what we are left with... that Yoda changed somehow in the last 5% of his life.

But the Jedi in the PT still hold Yoda as THE standard - in TPM, Anakins Midichlorian count is compared to Yodas, and in AOTC Anakins lightsaber skills are again compared to Yoda. So we must come to the conclusion that the Jedi are all numbskulls, and killing them off was not such a bad thing, and the Return of the Jedi may not really be a good idea afterall.
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#11 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:41 AM

QUOTE (ernesttomlinson @ May 9 2005, 02:21 AM)
Jedi are not supposed to have any emotional attachment.

Star Wars is not supposed to have to resort to such a tiresome cliche of fantasy fiction.

Why not? The Jedi following a code involving no emotional attachment is perfectly legitimate for what their duty to the Republic is.

QUOTE (ernesttomlinson @ May 9 2005, 02:21 AM)
And Yoda didn't let Dooku escape because of emotional attachment; he let Dooku escape because he didn't think to waste ten f**king seconds using the Force to disable or destroy Dooku's ship so that Dooku wouldn't have an escape route.

Although this would seem to be the logical thing to do, there are several examples in the first two prequel movies of the Jedi doing illogical things. Yoda was probably cocky enough to think he could stop Dooku, especially since Dooku was once his apprentice, by either using his force powers or his light saber. As I mentioned in a few of my other posts, I don't see Yoda as a wise Jedi in the Prequels.

QUOTE (ernesttomlinson @ May 9 2005, 02:21 AM)
That anyone can attach any significance whatever to a scene that exists solely as an ILM advertisement boggles my mind.

Well, once you can get past hating Lucas for the prequels and accept the fact that without him there is no Star Wars at all, then it's quite easy.
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#12 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:52 AM

Sorry for the double post, but I'm too lazy to quote more than one person in a single post.

QUOTE (Veer @ May 9 2005, 02:28 AM)
That is what we are left with... that Yoda changed somehow in the last 5% of his life.

But the Jedi in the PT still hold Yoda as THE standard - in TPM, Anakins Midichlorian count is compared to Yodas, and in AOTC Anakins lightsaber skills are again compared to Yoda.  So we must come to the conclusion that the Jedi are all numbskulls, and killing them off was not such a bad thing, and the Return of the Jedi may not really be a good idea afterall.


1. It's not unreasonable for a person to have a significant change in the last 5% of their lives. Especially after experiencing the attrocities which will surely happen in ROTS.

2. In the Prequels, Yoda is "the best of the Jedi", but he clearly is easily manipulated by the Sith. The problem with the Jedi is that they are too arrogant of their abilities. If Yoda is more concerned with saving Anakin and Obi-Wan from being crushed than preventing Dooku's escape, no wonder Yoda or any other Jedi cannot detect the Sith's presence.

3. The Jedi in the prequels are numbskulls, except for Qui Gon.

4. Killing the Jedi off in ROTS would be fitting.

5. Although the Jedi are fools, the Return of the Jedi (Luke) is good for one thing if anything: Eliminating the Sith.

Aside (In reply to the comment that emotional attachments don't belong in a Star Wars universe): Luke's attachment for Obi-Wan in a New Hope nearly gets the entire crew shot by Stormtroopers as he shouts out when Ben is struck down. And as we saw in The Empire Strikes Back, Luke's emotional attachment for Han and Leia draws him to Bespin where he nearly gets killed. Furthermore, Luke's emotional attachment for Leia in Return of the Jedi nearly leads to him kill his own father and complete his turn to the dark side. Since these attachments never seem to do any good for a Jedi, why would they be allowed? It cleary distracts them from doing the right thing. Why should this be forbidden in the Star Wars universe?

This post has been edited by Storm: 09 May 2005 - 03:14 AM

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#13 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 10:51 AM

Why not? The Jedi following a code involving no emotional attachment is perfectly legitimate for what their duty to the Republic is.

What is that duty exactly, Storm? The Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Galaxy, Obi-Wan tells us. I see nothing in that short job description that necessitates emotional detachment. I don't expect, for example, that Texas Rangers or RCMPs were ever compelled to promise not to fall in love when being sworn in as guardian of peace and justice in Texas or Canada.

If the idea of the Jedi as solitary ronin-like figures be accepted then I could well imagine individual and masterless Jedi deciding, voluntarily, to shed as many personal attachments as possible to make wandering easier. However Lucas specifically denies in the prequels this notion of the Jedi. They're just another drab assortment of functionaries now, not their own masters but beholden to some "Academy" and presumably to the Republic (although Lucas never makes this clear), and I wouldn't expect them to forgo emotional connexions in the service of their jobs any more than I would expect that from the King County Sheriff's Department.

And let me suggest this: Yoda's foolishness in the prequels matches that of his creator. Oh, and Storm - Star Wars already exists. I can admire the Lucas of 1977 and contemn the Lucas of 2005 and the existence of Star Wars is in no way threatened, hm? And if, tomorrow, Lucas and his vast corporate apparatus were to vanish from existence, Star Wars would still exist. The obvious affection in the best of us here (I do not count myself) Star Wars as it used to be, the creativity that has been shown in elucidating its story in ways that don't insult the intelligence as Lucas has done, testifies to the vitality of Star Wars. My thinking that Lucas ought to retire from moviemaking and settle down to a peaceful life of selling toys - you mistake contempt for hatred - does not affect the existence of Star Wars one whit.
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#14 User is offline   littlejerryseinfeld Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 11:59 AM

i much prefer the saber battles in the OT: they had great trash-talk, and the action was to the point. so far, in the PT duels, we've seen a lot of jumping, twirling, spinning, double-triple-quadruple saber-fighting... without one line of quality dialogue.

"you're powers are weak, old man."

"you can't win, darth. if you strike me down i'll become more powerful than you can possible imagine."

now, that's some dialogue, bitches!
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#15 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 12:46 PM

I like lightsaber battles. The one between Obi-Wan/Anakin VS Dooku was good as far as fenching style goes (unique of a style as it is), but the battle between Dooku and Yoda ruined the effect. I hate it. The battles in the OT are very good, and very well designed.
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