Chefelf.com Night Life: Return of the Jedi - Chefelf.com Night Life

I think in The Empire Strikes Back, Vader's suggestion that Luke could join him and they'd destroy the Emperor together was genuine.

However, in Return of the Jedi, they made Darth Vader into a completely different character and dropped that plot thread altogether, along with a lot of other really interesting ones.

Vader went from being this all-powerful warlord who was set to take over the entire empire for himself to being the Emperor's monkey boy and a soft pushover, with a heart of gold.

It's his characterisation in Return of the Jedi that doesn't work for me - not his lines in The Empire Strikes Back.

If you're looking for another reason to hate ROTJ, here's one - not all of the movie was directed by the late Richard Marquand. George Lucas took over somewhere towards the end along with Irvin Kershner's former assistant to direct certain scenes because the actors were [allegedly] not responding to Marquand's direction (the working relationship between Marquand and Lucas was said to be very, VERY bad).

Darth Vader just keeps getting screwed all over the place.

I had always heard that Lucas had directed the throne room scenes, and if you watch them, you can kind of tell. Strange, these are the better parts of ROTJ.

JYAMG, what's your take on Vader's reaction at the end of ESB, when the Falcon finally escapes? Is there a subtle change there?

Vader does lose something in ROTJ, but I'm not entirely sure for myself what it is exactly.

And I can see that, Vader making a genuine offer. Its pretty ballsy to try and bring Luke in with that intention.

- rangwe

He loses his strength of will and character - his whole "It's too late for me... I must obey my master" - no longer the wind-whipped Dark Lord swollen with might and majesty offering mastery of the universe to corrupt the young Luke, rather the downtrodden lackey answering his masters call to bring the prize he himself wants.

And it's very sad.

Regarding Vader's actions after the Falcon gets away, I will say first that I think Vader does feel some connection to his son. He wants his son to be with him.

But that doesn't necessarily make Vader into a nice guy.

He may have been looking to make himself a better person, I don't know. But I don't see how having him feeling some kind of kinship to his son should make him into the weaker subservient character he becomes in the third film.

If he wanted Luke to come with him as he said to him (through the force before the Falcon got away), there's no way in hell he would have allowed that situation in the throne room to develop in Return of the Jedi.

I don't think he'd want Luke anywhere near the Emperor unless they were going to overthrow him.

Agreed. Vader should've remained in the Emperor's sway the entire time. Yeah, Vader's character suffers greatly in ROTJ. What if Vader and the Emperor went into the shaft together. That way we would've always wondered (and best left this way) if he had done it to save Luke, or that he knew he could never have the power the Emperor possessed, and then have NO Force ghost of Anakin at the end... heck, no Force ghosts at all. Just Obi-Wan's voice saying something along the lines of all is well now and I now go to become one with the Force... something like that.

Or never have been under his sway - and seriously bringing Luke to him to kill him - it's so easy - rather than blocking Luke when he hacks at the emperor's face, he lets Luke kill him, then it takes on a whole new level - this isn't Luke teetering on the edge of darkness, recovering and then saving his dying old man - this is Luke falling to darkness - a genuine Dark Side Luke - and then he and Vader duel for mastery of the Empire.

That would have rocked - imagine how great Return of the Jedi would have been with a few modifications to the Jabba prelude - lots actually, losing the Ewoks and the friendly forest for a clear-felled battlefield area around a massive shield bunker, and Luke Skywalker, who began as the lighthearted, light-thinking young boy on Tatooine, dying when the Rebellion destroys the Death Star beneath his feet after he defeats Darth Vader.

Much darker, yes... But I think perhaps, much better too.

My take on that whole story is that Vader wants his son to join them because that is the only other option, other than killing him. And since there is some good in Vader yet, it is not so easy for him to destroy his own son.

As for Vader's suggestion in ESB, I agree with Rangwe. He was just tempting Luke to go with him.

I know in ROTJ he said "I must obey my master" in respons to Luke's plea to turn away from the dark side, but it still means what he said, he must obey his master. That means no backstabbing!

I don't think I would have liked it if Vaders wasn't under the Emperors sway. It makes it more genuine that he is consumed by the dark side, since he has to obey his master.



What situation exactly? That the Emperor wanted Luke to slay Vader and take his place? It was perhaps not so easy for Vader to foresee, all Vader wanted was for Luke to turn. Losing the duel was not in his own power.



Why not?

You have to look at where the inconsistencies lie. And as The Empire Strikes Back is the film that was made first, we should go with the characterisation of Darth Vader in that film over that silly "I must obey my master." crap in Return of the Jedi.

No backstabbing? Making that offer to Luke far away from the Emperor, with no witnesses around.... that's backstabbing already.


As for the situation in the throne room, Vader's not an idiot. He'd know about the emperor and his ways. The way I see it, and the way things were set up in The Empire Strikes Back, Vader believed Luke was some kind of secret weapon he could use to his advantage.

Vader enjoys control. And the more control he has, the happier he is. Look how much happier he was when Governor Tarkin was dead and he had the whole Imperial Fleet at his command. Vader would have no love for the Emperor, especially after what the Emperor did to him, turning him into some kind of freak.



Well otherwise, it's giving the game away a little early, isn't it? He'd keep Luke secret until it was time to act out the plan.

I recommend anyone who isn't following this argument to watch The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi again and compare the two Vaders. They really appear to be two entirely different people.

(And while you're at it, compare the two Yodas and notice how Frank Oz forgot how to do the voice in Return of the Jedi.)



Lastly, Mnesymone, I really like your ideas there. Also, that wouldn't require two many major changes to the current movie either - but even within those confines, you'd get a far superior film.

Good points JYAMG and Mnesymone. It'd have been a hell of a movie to have Luke turn and then die on the Death Star.

I think at the end of ESB, Vader cracks. The duel has shattered Vader as much as it has Luke. He's seen his own recklessness and anger and his son mastering it as best he can with half a training regimen behind him. He hides it, turning away to meditate on the events that have transpired, but I think from that moment on, the mask Vader has hidden behind - the "System" he follows begins to unravel.

Vader isn't stupid, as was said, and I think he's still a vibrant and alive personality. The "I must obey" line sounds like an excuse to me. Wow, that's vulnerability - he's actually *feeling* something and fighting it to maintain his "control".

I really believe that Luke influenced Vader a great deal, and Vader spent the time searching between movies to hide his own growing self-reflection.

Yeah, it sucks to see Vader not be a Terminator, but I think its believable. The Emperor almost feels like he is pulling this tactic to deal with the situation himself. His early conversation with Vader is almost a reprimand...."patience...in time he will come to you." Because man, Palpatine can't fail to have felt the goodness in Vader either. Man's been out searching for Luke instead of inflicting atrocities.

My big problem with Vader is not that he turns soft, but that his "redemption" is so total. Its enough to have him kill the emperor and save Luke.

Though I see your point too. In fact, I'd have prefered it that Vader have plans in place in case Luke did join him, or at least have some plot going....that whole thing is handled poorly. Even a vulnerable Vader with a growing conflict should have kept his butt covered...even if it was a poorly thought out backup. Lucas just wasn't able to handle it except through mellodrama.

- rangwe

I would have joined my father and killed the empororer...

"here's the plan, dad... when he says strike me down, i will and you let me do it... then you take the seat and I'll take over strangling officers into submission... they will call me Darth Zoon, i guess, and i will have all the power converters in the galaxy.... Bwah ha ha ha ha..."

Face it - its a better deal than the one the rebellion gives him: "hey, risk life and limb flying fighters against heavily armed and armoured targets, and we'll call you commander and let you lead the fighters flying against heavily armed and armoured targets - meanwhile we'll put that guy over there who just signed up second-in-command of the fleet, and let him lead our fighters and call him general."

While as Darth Zoon (why not? its no worse than Maul) - he gets to kick butt and wear black.

'Vader' is dutch for 'father',
'Zoon' is dutch for 'son'

Incidentally, what do Maul and Sidious mean?
Or were they just crappy names.