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6DAS Spoilers

#376 User is offline   Captain Wonderful Icon

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 02:36 PM

QUOTE (Quitch @ Jan 8 2008, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Discworld's "Put the frog in the sleeping man's mouth to attract the hovering butterfly" puzzle.


What about the "Starch the snake straight and then fill its mouth with compost so it can replace a senile wizard's staff" puzzle? Or the "Three tiny pixels represent that the man has a gold banana behind his ear, examine those minute pixels specifically and then ask him about it," puzzle? Hell, it's ironic that you even had to get the butterfly, since the whole idea was to predict chaos theory and use it to make a storm in a place where you don't need a storm for any readily forseeable reason.

My point is, for me, mind-bustingly fiddly, difficult-to-accept-that-you-could-even-do puzzles are pretty much a requisite in this kind of game. I love them, even though they hate me.
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#377 User is offline   Quitch Icon

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 03:51 PM

I always thought Lucas Arts were the champions of the era because they perfectly straddled difficulty and logic like the supreme gods that they were. They even managed story. When I think of them pumping out Star Wars games I die a little inside.

The kind of puzzle that makes you run to the walk through crying for mummy and is only solved without one using the "Click everything on fucking everything" technique has, IMO, failed.
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#378 User is offline   Spiner Icon

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 11:12 AM

Whew, finally finished reading all 26 pages.

Now to share my brilliance with the world so that unlike Chzo, Yahtzee shall choke on the pain of yet another person raping their work with wrong conclusions and release the special edition just to make it stop.

So here are some of the musings that seem to make sense to me.
John Defoe is gone completely. If any part of him remained then the bridge would not have formed. The look and behavior of the New Prince is the influence of Defoe on Decabe, but not Defoe himself. Chzo isn't keeping the Trilby clone for control because the New Prince did not react badly and fear him as Defoe did. If the look command is used on him at the end, Theo will say that Trilby is the Guide and can freely float right past him to get to the Arrogant Man.

The reason why the welder costume stayed with Theo on his trip to Chzo's world despite being constructs of John Defoe's mind was because of Magick since the real objects were still hurtling through space at the time. The choice might also have been to further enrage the Tall man who was previously the master of the Welder/Bridgekeeper/Defoe and now was being replaced by a superior version of his slave.

The three blessed agonies prepared Theo for Chzo to mold him into the new prince. The Tall man was only the soul of Cabadath placed in a tree while the new Prince seems to use Theo's broken body covered in bandages, a limited Mind controlled by "it hurts" ChzoDOS and a soul that's easily manipulated still powerful.

Having his soul placed inside the tree was supposed to keep the Tall Man alive through his lessons, but once unleashed Cabadath had no interest in ending his torment by destroying the tree. Instead he clung to his existence and protected the various forms as it was passed down through the ages, maybe even enjoying his rampages. His vulnerability through the idol, the disobedience, the dozens of dead Trilbies being scattered around Chzo and using his punishment to gain power and immortality instead of being humble necessitated the creation of the new prince to replace him

While "then _________ knew the name of Chzo" seems to be a euphemism for death, Cabadath was said to have already known the name of Chzo after being pulled through to Chzo's realm but when the Tall/Arrogant man fell into the pit it said that he knew the name of Chzo again. The Lych/Wraith note Theo found at the entrance to Defoe's mind states that a Lych can still feel pain but only damage to their soul artifact is permanent. So losing his powers and his place along with 196 years in the gut of Chzo until the idol is vaporized seems to have been his final punishment.

Garbage disposal... what a way to go~

---
Yahtzee bleeding out of his eyes yet?
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#379 User is offline   Casual Icon

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 11:29 AM

QUOTE (David-kyo @ Jan 5 2008, 05:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, we kind of got that already. The moral question was whether you're supposed to feel pity towards the guy because he's just a clone or not, and we more or less unanimously decided that you indeed were.



I didnt know that because I couldnt bring myself to wade through 26 pages of posts but it is a good point well made, I did feel bad having to kill him and I wonder what I would have done if I'd had a choice.
QUOTE (arien @ Jun 29 2008, 03:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So this baby, while still inside its mother, murdered his twin brother and STOLE HIS PENIS.

That is one badass baby.

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#380 User is offline   Millitant Pacifist Icon

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 12:21 PM

QUOTE (Spiner @ Jan 10 2008, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
While "then _________ knew the name of Chzo" seems to be a euphemism for death, Cabadath was said to have already known the name of Chzo after being pulled through to Chzo's realm but when the Tall/Arrogant man fell into the pit it said that he knew the name of Chzo again.


I thought the "[person] knew the name of the King" thing just meant pain, considering the fact that Chzo is a pain elemental, so it could just have meant Cabadath got tortured or broke a nail or something along those lines.
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#381 User is offline   blackberry-chan Icon

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 02:01 AM

QUOTE (Millitant Pacifist @ Jan 10 2008, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought the "[person] knew the name of the King" thing just meant pain, considering the fact that Chzo is a pain elemental, so it could just have meant Cabadath got tortured or broke a nail or something along those lines.


That seems right... didn't it say the woodcutter's son (the one who threw the rock at Cabbie) "knew the name of the King?" And he wasn't killed at that point, so it probably just means some sort of agony or other.

BTW, these games are the greatest fucking thing since sliced bread.
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#382 User is offline   Dacabe Icon

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 12:00 PM

QUOTE (Spiner @ Jan 10 2008, 11:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The three blessed agonies prepared Theo for Chzo to mold him into the new prince. The Tall man was only the soul of Cabadath placed in a tree while the new Prince seems to use Theo's broken body covered in bandages, a limited Mind controlled by "it hurts" ChzoDOS and a soul that's easily manipulated still powerful.


The tall man's mind and body was together, only his soul was separated. The soul's got a new physical form (the tree), and could still feel pain. If there was only the soul in the tree, then nothing could've control the body.

Another example for "knew the name": "and the Prince struk down the lover of Frehorn, and Frehorn knew the name of the King"
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#383 User is offline   blackberry-chan Icon

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 03:19 PM

QUOTE (Dacabe @ Apr 14 2008, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another example for "knew the name": "and the Prince struk down the lover of Frehorn, and Frehorn knew the name of the King"


Ooh, that's right. Man, I bet Frehorn was way pure by the time he died...
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#384 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 01:10 AM

QUOTE (blackberry-chan @ Apr 14 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That seems right... didn't it say the woodcutter's son (the one who threw the rock at Cabbie) "knew the name of the King?" And he wasn't killed at that point, so it probably just means some sort of agony or other.

Torture of mind soul body. A pain elemental doesn't neccesarily bring physical pain...
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#385 User is offline   blackberry-chan Icon

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 12:08 PM

QUOTE (Patch @ Apr 15 2008, 01:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Torture of mind soul body. A pain elemental doesn't neccesarily bring physical pain...


Uh, yeah, that's what I meant.
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#386 User is offline   TheNewPrince Icon

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 10:32 AM

Me and my friends came up with two more intersting points here.
We obviously know how the Frehorn blade works. But we always assume that the caretaker became who he was because he used it on himself and the effects became slightly altered. But what we thought was that because of this non-linear time loop, and the caretaker tells Somerset to use the blade on himself, and inevitably become caretaker, the Frehorn blade does not change in it effect. So basically, the caretaker, whether he consciously realises this or not, works for Chzo, as he feeds and ensures safety in the whole proccess. So by being told to stab himself by the Caretaker, who works for Chzo, Somerset is actually being killed by Chzo, becoming his servant, which then leads him to become the caretaker.

I know its very hard to understand with how i've phrased it, sorry.

And also, when the woman Doctor goes into the hub containing the mind of John DeFoe, did anyone else assume that DeFoe killed her? Because we then realised that it was actually the caretaker, or assumed so. We realised this because when we phoned her after she had died, we got instructions nontheless, which if we didn't have, the plot would have not expanded and fed Chzo's will. So, again, we think the caretaker killed her, as to drive along the destiny of the characters as he always does.

Lastly, consider the possibility that because Chzo owns John Somerset, as I said earlier. How about if the John deFoe in 7 Days was actually Somerset, as seen in 6 Days. Because when you follow Somerset's path to becoming the caretaker, you see all of these killings through the eyes of John DeFoe, you think, but what if it is no more than the Caretaker, once again, ensuring safety in Chzo's plans.
But I'd like to know the significance of the people you kill looking like John DeFoe

Additionally, some smaller points:
the very opening of 5 Days, who do you think it was that told Trilby about the house? The Caretaker maybe?
The door in 7 Days which you come back through in Trilby's notes or 6 Days (I can't remember which one) for a brief time, when you try to open it, it just says "I'm not allowed in there".
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#387 User is offline   Teknogamer Icon

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 04:23 PM

I can't say I've read through all 26 pages but I don't recall having seen this point addressed (so sorry if im just repeating what someone else said).

With all the different approaches to explaining why the prince had to be replaced and how he was punished etc... there still remains to explain what the caretaker wondered: why chzo misled everyone from the beginning.

So my take on things was that chzo never intended to get to the technological world, as the caretaker points out, as he could never exist here. Rather chzo was happy just living in the world of magic and living off all the pain he could get his hands on. But when summoned by the druid he immediately intended 2 goals:

1) to punish the "arrogant man"
2) to utilize this opportunity to milk the arrogant mans punishment as the greatest torture to ever exist.
(Of course the accomplishing of one goal would be the accomplishment of the other)

So obviously the greatest torture to exist couldn't be merely physical. So rather chzo gave this false prophecy and pretended to allow the arrogant man to be his servant. He then allows the arrogant man to worship him as a king and to guide events to eventually lead chzo to this world. So basically the arrogant man expends thousands of years and puts his heart and soul into this endeavor, believing he's serving his king and perfecting the world etc....

And at the peak of it all, when all those efforts and emotional investments (as are aparent in all the clippings from the book of chzo) come to bear their fruit, chzo turns on him, and uses this very bridge, the very creation of thousands of years of the arrogant mans efforts, to shaft him and renounce him as he allows another to become the prince and destroy the arrogant man. In this way a suffering of the greatest degree was reached, the absolute and utmost destruction of heart and soul.

Thus when all is said and done chzo cares less for the bridge its all a means to create the ultimate punishment, the ultimate pain.....


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#388 User is offline   David-kyo Icon

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 07:16 AM

QUOTE (TheNewPrince @ Jul 16 2008, 04:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And also, when the woman Doctor goes into the hub containing the mind of John DeFoe, did anyone else assume that DeFoe killed her? Because we then realised that it was actually the caretaker, or assumed so. We realised this because when we phoned her after she had died, we got instructions nontheless, which if we didn't have, the plot would have not expanded and fed Chzo's will. So, again, we think the caretaker killed her, as to drive along the destiny of the characters as he always does.

That logic is a bit presumptuous. It is DeFoe that cuts her throat. The caretaker is too much of a sneaky bastard to resort to violence. He has other people do the dirty work.

And the person talking on the phone could be anyone, the SE said it was open to interpretation.

This post has been edited by David-kyo: 02 February 2009 - 07:18 AM

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#389 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 01:32 AM

QUOTE (TheNewPrince @ Jul 17 2008, 01:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lastly, consider the possibility that because Chzo owns John Somerset, as I said earlier. How about if the John deFoe in 7 Days was actually Somerset, as seen in 6 Days. Because when you follow Somerset's path to becoming the caretaker, you see all of these killings through the eyes of John DeFoe, you think, but what if it is no more than the Caretaker, once again, ensuring safety in Chzo's plans.

Ah, I don't think so, since you play Somerset when everyone dies. Basically, when Serena dies he's on the roof, when Angela dies he's in the cage and when William dies he's hiding. He can't of been John Defoe the whole way through. He may have been possessed at a time, but the evidence points against it.

As for what Teknogamer said...
What if Chzo just wanted a perfect prince? The arrogant man was not within the beliefs of the Cult of Agony at all, as in, he didn't suffer the mind, body and soul until Chzo had him. Perhaps you're right in the ultimate punishment, but look at the new prince.
Body: Broken bones etc
Mind: Fear, boredom, confusion
Soul: Making him fall in love and ripping that away from him.

It just seems that the New Prince is a better candidate for Prince then the Arrogant Man. I dunno, maybe I'm just spouting shit.
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#390 User is offline   Teknogamer Icon

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 01:32 PM

QUOTE (Patch @ Feb 3 2009, 01:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for what Teknogamer said...
What if Chzo just wanted a perfect prince? The arrogant man was not within the beliefs of the Cult of Agony at all, as in, he didn't suffer the mind, body and soul until Chzo had him. Perhaps you're right in the ultimate punishment, but look at the new prince.
Body: Broken bones etc
Mind: Fear, boredom, confusion
Soul: Making him fall in love and ripping that away from him.


My problem with this approach was that a few questions are left unanswered.

First, in general you'd have to explain what the function of a prince is, until now I was assuming based on given information that the prince was there merely to bring chzo to this world, now that we see he doesn't want that what could chzo want a prince for? Especially considering that the bridge between worlds existed only for moments, so the prince won't be able to go to the world of technology and within the world of magic chzo is powerful enough (if not the most powerful) and wouldn't need a prince.

Secondly, this still doesn't address the issue of the false prophecies. The explanation I gave would explain this. (But if you answer the first question, explaining why chzo would need a new prince, then potentially you could answer this by explaining that chzo knew the druid wasn't the perfect prince and set up this whole system merely as a means of getting someone else)

Lastly, I'm not sure if the new prince is so much better than the old prince. The old prince was placed into a tree, where the body of the tree went through much suffering (as seen throughout the story) his soul is eventually destroyed, and as for his mind, this absolute betrayal and all the prophecies being false may be a mental torture (all the which are of greater severity than the new prince's woes). Also it seems funny that the new princes sufferings are so unique, I'm sure in the thousands of years there have been people who suffer more, physically/mentally/spiritually, and chzo could have arranged the bridge for a different time.


Thus based on the above I attempted to explain the new prince as being signifcant only in as much as he increases and emphasizes the old princes punishment and suffering.



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