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"Bodies" Exhibit Debate educational or high-profit unethical freakshow?

#16 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 08:05 AM

QUOTE (Spoon Poetic @ Nov 24 2007, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I never understood what kind of attachment a dead person could have to their bodies anyway. Or why their families would be so attached, either. Dude's not in there anymore, it's just a rotting shell. Who cares where it goes or what's done with it, as long as it's not disrespecting the person who used to be in that body? (And I don't see this exhibit as disrespectful.)


A lot of people feel that if the body is disturbed after death, that the spirit will not rest peacefully. Even if it isn’t an outward thought, it still something that affects people on a subconscious level.

Personally, I would like my remains to be tossed out into the back field behind my house, to feed te crows. Unfortunately, that’s illegal. So instead, I’m opting to be cremated and my ashes spread across the same piece of land. Still illegal, but little less noticeable.

I wouldn’t mind donating some of organs, but I’m afraid to sign the necessary forms, lest the universe decide someone needs my organs more than I, and subsequently, cut my lifespan a bit short. I realize its just superstition, but I cant seem to shake it. Maybe one day, I’ll get over it.
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#17 User is offline   Sarah Icon

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 11:43 AM

]
QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Nov 24 2007, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't have a problem with it even if the bodies were illegally obtained. Unless the people were actually killed specifically to farm their remains, I have no problem with any of it. Burying bodies is a waste, and I'd like it if every brain-dead individual just became property of the state. Then we wouldn't have to pester next of kin with garbage about organ donation (they get pestered even if you signed that card). When I die, if my organs are healthy, I want my kidneys to free two people from a lifetime of dialysis. I want my skin to help burn victims, my heart to save a life, my liver to be cut apart to help maybe a dozen people, my pancreas to help another, etc. What's left, if useful, can be used for research or fed to the fish for all I care.

As for art, well, it's just sculpture. It's not all that creative. Across the Universe, now that's art.


The problem with no documentation and no regulations for production, importation, transportation and/or display of plastinated bodies is that no one can actually say whether the suspicions that these bodies WERE harvested is true or not. For me, the presence of 11 body processing plants next door to prisons and in the same city (Dalian China) as the major military hospital recorded to be the site of organ harvesting, just doesn't add up to a trustworthy combination.

In January of this year, David Kilgour and David Matas of Canada published the results of their independent investigation into the organ harvesting claims. They concluded that the claims were absolutely true. You can read the Kilgour-Matas report at: http://www.organharv....net/index.html. Again, this took place in the same provence as the body processing. My instincts tell me that there is too much likelihood that there is some connection between the two. With 2 billion dollars made in this new entertainment industry over the last couple of years, I just don't have enough trust in the Chinese system to be able to handle this combination ethically. But, you know, that's just me.

If you want to have your body posed so that some production company executives can buy waterfront property, that's totally up to you. I don't, however, think its ok to be so arrogant as to impose your own idea of moral code on others who may have a different cultural and religious idea of what's 'ok'. That stance reeks of imperialism to me. (Hey, we think its ok to make money from Chinese bodies, so get over your archaic religious beliefs Asia, it should be ok for you too. We are American and we find this totally awesome entertainment. Fork over more bodies!)

Chinese American groups protested in San Francisco and then-City Supervisor Fiona Ma, stated that "Chinese culture is very religious and superstitious regarding death and the display of dead bodies." and later introduced a San Francisco ordinance on corpse exhibits.
Fiona Ma's statements here
San Francisco protesters here
Asian protesters also picketed the exhibit in London and more recently in Columbus OH.
Columbus Protesters here

Its NOT ok for them. So, I think that should be respected.
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#18 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 04:22 PM

Sarah, your message is posed as a response to mine, but you answer some points I did not address. I did not say that I suport murdering people for their organs. I also said that I don't think this exhibit is "art." I'd like to visit this Dalian City and see these body processing plants, becasue otherwise that smells like an urban legend. Ooh, those wicked Chinks.

Sailor: yeah, I know. Men on the moon, human genome project, approaching a real estimate of the age of the universe, and we're still worshipping anscestors and believing in ghosts. It makes me sad.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#19 User is offline   Sarah Icon

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 06:36 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Nov 24 2007, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sarah, your message is posed as a response to mine, but you answer some points I did not address. I did not say that I suport murdering people for their organs. I also said that I don't think this exhibit is "art." I'd like to visit this Dalian City and see these body processing plants, becasue otherwise that smells like an urban legend. Ooh, those wicked Chinks.

Sailor: yeah, I know. Men on the moon, human genome project, approaching a real estimate of the age of the universe, and we're still worshipping anscestors and believing in ghosts. It makes me sad.



What about the New York Times? Will you take their word for it?
David Barboza did visit Dalian. This is what he found. There is a video as well, but I don't have time to look for it. I'm sure you can find it with a simple search if you're especially interested.

http://travel.nytime...agewanted=print
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#20 User is offline   Sarah Icon

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 06:48 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Nov 24 2007, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sarah, your message is posed as a response to mine, but you answer some points I did not address. I did not say that I suport murdering people for their organs. I also said that I don't think this exhibit is "art." I'd like to visit this Dalian City and see these body processing plants, becasue otherwise that smells like an urban legend. Ooh, those wicked Chinks.

Sailor: yeah, I know. Men on the moon, human genome project, approaching a real estimate of the age of the universe, and we're still worshipping anscestors and believing in ghosts. It makes me sad.



You said you would have a problem with these exhibits if it were the case that these people were harvested, so I posted comments related to that point. The tone of your posts is also basically (paraphrasing) 'get over it'. Your reality is not necessarily others reality. What do you so necesarily think is wrong with honoring and respecting your ancestors? I take issue with that personally. No one has the right to tell me how I should view my own family, thank you. And the same for others. If you want to hawk yours for money and let them moulder in the mall. go for it. I'm glad I'm not YOUR mother.

And I don't think the Chinese are evil. That''s the whole point. I do think that country's system is corrupt.

Which takes us to the rumors. What about the New York Times? Will you take their word for it?
David Barboza did visit Dalian. This is what he found. There is a video as well, but I don't have time to look for it. I'm sure you can find it with a simple search if you're especially interested.

http://travel.nytime...agewanted=print

Wake up and smell the coffee, honey. Nasty people come in all shapes, colors and nationalities. The whole point is that if you CONSENT to being picked by crows, or donate yourself, that's your choice. And if I would not consent, that should be my choice. You don't get to decide for me, and I don't get to decide for you. Money hungry production companies should not be deciding for these poor folks either.

Nuff said
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#21 User is offline   Ninja Duck Icon

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 07:13 PM

Welcome to the forums, Sarah.

Civilization II, how can it not bother you if the bodies were illegally obtained? Stealing is bad, and it's disrespectful and hurtful to everyone who knew the body's previous owner. I mean, after JFK was shot, we let Jackie cry all over him. We didn't yank him away and put him in a dead presidents museum, or a puppet show.
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#22 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 07:39 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Nov 24 2007, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sailor: yeah, I know. Men on the moon, human genome project, approaching a real estimate of the age of the universe, and we're still worshipping anscestors and believing in ghosts. It makes me sad.


laugh.gif I love you. happy.gif
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#23 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 06:10 PM

Maybe I'm being misunderstood.

1) I think killing people for their organs is bad.

2) I think taking the organs from dead people, who were not murdered for their organs, is no big deal.

3) I am not interested in selling my organs. I don't even live in a country where that's legal. However, when I die it would be a shame if I were buried or burned wih useful organs inside me (or enveloping me, in the case of skin). I want my organs to be used to save or extend the lives of other people, if they're useful. If I'm old and the organs are not useful, then I don't care what happens.

4) I don't believe in a spirit world or an afterlife. I like poking fun of Sailor Abbey for that. Anscestor worship, Sarah, is silly and regressive. I can't be shamed out of saying that.

5) Notion previously unaddressed (by me), I agree that making money from organ harvesting is probably bad. If it's a business, then the original owner of the organs should be empowered to make money for them, as money is to be made. If the organs are the property of the state, then the state should be empowered to sell them, and the money go to the general coffers. If it's the case that businesses are making money from organs with no expense (that is, if the organs are being given to them from nothing), then I don't like that. However as for "illegally harvested," I stand by my original comment that I think the organs should be the property of the state and that we should stop burying useful bodies.

6) My handle is Civilian Number Two. It has nothing to do with the Sid Meier game, although I like that.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#24 User is offline   Ninja Duck Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 11:38 PM

Hm. I didn't know Sid Meier had a hand in Goldeneye.

I find the thought of the government owning my body chilling. It's like slavery, except even slaves were free when they died. And you're proposing that the state should not only own my body, but the bodies of any children I might have? Doesn't that seem kind of, I don't know, Third Reich? If I were less civilized, I would find an essay online railing against you kind of people and copy and paste it here.

Seriously, though, mandatory organ donation might save lives, but so might compulsory military service, or a blanket ban on cars, or prohibition of dangerous substances like alcohol or cigarettes. What if someone doesn't want to join the army or ride a bike or be dissected? Isn't taking someone's organs an infringement on their liberties (or their family's)?
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#25 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 11:59 PM

But... They're dead. What do they care what happens to their organs? They'll just rot otherwise. Those other things you propose as comparisons actually affect the people who are forced to do things, but with organ donations, it doesn't effect anyone except helping someone else live who might have died prematurely. There can still be a nice funeral and stuff... So what if Uncle Ed is buried without his liver? Or maybe missing a buttcheek. You'd never know by looking, and he saved a life or gave some poor burned child a face.

Though I'm a big fat hypocrite for arguing this, because I haven't made myself an organ donor (because I haven't researched it enough yet, and have heard that checking the little box can mean they can pull the plug on ya if you're on life support for such-and-such amount of time).
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#26 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 08:16 AM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Nov 24 2007, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You said you would have a problem with these exhibits if it were the case that these people were harvested, so I posted comments related to that point. The tone of your posts is also basically (paraphrasing) 'get over it'. Your reality is not necessarily others reality. What do you so necesarily think is wrong with honoring and respecting your ancestors? I take issue with that personally. No one has the right to tell me how I should view my own family, thank you. And the same for others. If you want to hawk yours for money and let them moulder in the mall. go for it. I'm glad I'm not YOUR mother.


I agree with you completely, but since you’re a smidgen new to the Debate Club, let me give you a tip. The atheists are always right! Not only are they right always right, all of the time, the people who do not share their opinions are either uneducated cretins or just plain crazy. Refusing even to try to see from someone else’s point of view seems the norm around here. I’m not trying to dissuade you from arguing, just letting you know that unless you forsake every last belief you hold of the intangible, after spending some time in the Debate Club, at some point you will eventually consider shoving a ball-point through your temple.

Cheers, mate!
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#27 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 09:29 AM

Since we roll over and pay any tax increase, happily, I suppose the state can have my body parts too.
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#28 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 10:56 AM

Okay, I somehow forgot to put a sentence in that I meant to. I don't want the state to own anyone's body or parts therein, considering governments are generally evil. But I don't understand why people have such a big problem with the idea of donating. Like, why can't that be the norm, and the people who don't donate when they die be the ones people think are weird?

If a government were perfect and not corrupt (if that were possible) I wouldn't have a problem with them deciding what to do with a dead person's organs, I don't think.

And Sailor Abbey, I know where you're coming from, but I don't think it's quite so bad as you think (well, maybe on some issues). Such as right now, where the "atheist" in question is in the minority on this debate. And a couple people do try to see things from other points of view, but I definitely share your frustration on that issue for the most part. Which is why I tried to start a debate where people were given their sides, but it didn't go over so well. sad.gif
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#29 User is offline   Sarah Icon

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 12:05 PM

QUOTE (Spoon Poetic @ Nov 26 2007, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Okay, I somehow forgot to put a sentence in that I meant to. I don't want the state to own anyone's body or parts therein, considering governments are generally evil. But I don't understand why people have such a big problem with the idea of donating. Like, why can't that be the norm, and the people who don't donate when they die be the ones people think are weird?

If a government were perfect and not corrupt (if that were possible) I wouldn't have a problem with them deciding what to do with a dead person's organs, I don't think.

And Sailor Abbey, I know where you're coming from, but I don't think it's quite so bad as you think (well, maybe on some issues). Such as right now, where the "atheist" in question is in the minority on this debate. And a couple people do try to see things from other points of view, but I definitely share your frustration on that issue for the most part. Which is why I tried to start a debate where people were given their sides, but it didn't go over so well. sad.gif


I hope you're not putting ME in that category. I don't have any problem with people donating their bodies for legitimate science or to help others. The key differences here is that evidence shows that
1. these were not donated (issue of consent) and
2. This is entertainment for the masses, titillation, dead body porn, not education. At least, not education in that the money goes for further education. It may be education along the same lines as Mengele learning a lot for science from throwing acid in people's eyes, but not ethical education.

Thank you, Sailor Abbey, for the pointers. I'll try to keep that in mind.
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#30 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 01:01 PM

When I went, I found it very educational. Especially from an art student's point of view. We have to draw naked people, not because every artist should know how to draw boobs and penises, but because in order to be able to accurately portray any figure, clothes or not, one has to know everything about the body, first. Proportions, skin texture, muscle lines, soft curves, etc. We also draw muscles and skeletons and what-not, so that we can learn how the body looks and how it looks when it's moving and we learn anatomy and we are expected to understand how the body works so that we can use it better in our art. So this exhibit really opened up new worlds for me in that area. And if it's entertaining at the same time as teaching, that's awesome! Should all learning by boring and horrible to have to sit through?

I do hate that the people who made this stuff are getting rich from this and not putting that money to further benefit others, but that's the corporate world today, and what are we supposed to do, just not do anything ever so that no one makes a profit from their ideas?

And the issue of consent thing, well, yeah, that's bad if true. Horrible. But I still think the idea behind the exhibit is a good one.
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