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About the prophecy... (though we'd all really just like to forget about it...)

#16 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 05:34 PM

QUOTE (xenduck @ Jul 16 2007, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i think i understand now. while i dont think there is anything wrong with the prophecy, i see that there is a vital element missing. its one of my biggest problems with the prequals (but thats not saying much since i dont have many problems). that is, that there is no one to stand back and say, "hey thats crazy!" like Han pointing out what a bad idea running around the deathstar is; or leia commenting on chewie's walking-carpetness. or Indiana Jones just shooting the sword guy in 'raiders'. this isnt just comedy, its recognising the situations are silly and representing the audience's willingness to play along.


A good point. Young kids generally accept whatever an authority tells them. When they hit adolescence, their brain starts to change: They question things and want to know *why*. When Luke wants to rescue the Princess, Han asks why and has to be persuaded by a big reward that appeals to his mercenary sense. It makes sense. If Luke had said 'Hey Han! Let's rescue the Princess!' and Han enthusiastically replies "Ok! Lets!", well, then it really would be (just a) kid's movie.

An intelligent audience asks these sort of questions; well why should they do that? You need to feel the characters motivations. When they start doing silly or pointless things, you ask, "What the heck is wrong with these people?"

There's nothing wrong per se with a prophecy, but prophecies have become used so much in science fiction and fantasy that they've become a cliche. They also tell you the ending of the movie. Imagine two versions of LOTR: (1) the movie you saw, (2) the movie you saw but with Gandalf declaring at the beginning "It is the prophecy! A hobbit will travel to Mordor to destroy the ring and his friends will defeat the forces of darkness in a big battle! It is the prophecy, and *you* are that hobbit!" The prophecy is entirely unnecessary, and worse, detracts from the story. Stories where they use a Prophecy and get away with it there is an element of doubt about the outcome: Matrix, Dune (the book, which is quite different from the movie where there is no question)

It also adds an "Idiot" dimension. It's a mistake often made in movies where you know who the bad guy is at the beginning, but no one else does. The rest of the cast run around like headless chooks, and you the audience becomes frustrated at their apparent stupidity. OT Yoda is wise. PT Yoda time and time again is the fool.

QUOTE
the PT seems to take itself TOO seriously. there was some slapstick via jarjar and 3PO but no cynical questioning of dubious elements such as midichlorians or the prophecy. this may be indicative of Lucas's suround of yes-men; which may or may not be his fault, but a fault none the less.


If the other characters in TPM had questioned the Prophecy, sufficient to convince the audience why they were following it, they could have got away with it. Rather than Obi-won training A* because Q* believed the Prophecy, he could have equally trained him because he was Q*'s apprentice and now Q* is dead so O* must take him on. That's all they needed to say, and by itself it would have been far more human and warm. Easy, really... They didn't need the prophecy, but having used it, they didn't explain it or even justify it.

BTW according to "Secret History ..." in the ROTJ Special Edition at the very end when everyone is partying a voice in the crowd calls out "He is the Son of Suns" referring to the Prophecy in the early draft storyline for the original script. If anyone has the ROTJ SE, could you check. When I got the Original OTs on DVD, I bestowed upon the Special Editions the fate they deserved: I taped over them. :-)

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yet a fault im willing to overlook given the depth and breadth of the story.

Oh yeah. I'm not out to send George to the chair. Just want to understand what worked and what didn't and why.

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 16 July 2007 - 05:35 PM

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#17 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 05:45 PM

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Jul 16 2007, 05:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
BTW according to "Secret History ..." in the ROTJ Special Edition at the very end when everyone is partying a voice in the crowd calls out "He is the Son of Suns" referring to the Prophecy in the early draft storyline for the original script. If anyone has the ROTJ SE, could you check.


Actually, there are three voices: one yells "Son of Suns! Son of Suns!", another yells "Thank the Lord! Thank the Lord!", and a final voice yells "Whoo!" It's rather odd, really.

As for Lucas himself; no, I don't think he should go to the chair. Probably lethal injection, but not the chair. tongue.gif
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#18 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 07:44 PM

QUOTE (Bond @ Jul 17 2007, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually, there are three voices: one yells "Son of Suns! Son of Suns!", another yells "Thank the Lord! Thank the Lord!", and a final voice yells "Whoo!" It's rather odd, really.


Wow! Funny when you consider the only place the 'Son of Suns' things was mentioned was that early draft. When you think about it, a lame sounding title, but better than 'The Chosen One'. Maybe they should have cast Keneau as Annakin Skywalker: 'I'm The Chosen One? Whoa!'

Here's the link for the book the 'Son of Suns' reference is from: http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/ BTW it isn't perfect: the author sometimes makes sweeping statements or drops and doesn't back them up, but it's the most thorough treatment of Lucasology I've seen to date. It's a whopping 400 pages long.

QUOTE (Bond @ Jul 17 2007, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for Lucas himself; no, I don't think he should go to the chair. Probably lethal injection, but not the chair. tongue.gif


You'd be putting him out of his misery: Even with the diamond-encrusted collar and and Louis Vutton Litter Tray he's one sad, sick puppy.

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 16 July 2007 - 07:46 PM

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#19 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 08:02 PM

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Jul 16 2007, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here's the link for the book the 'Son of Suns' reference is from: http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/ BTW it isn't perfect: the author sometimes makes sweeping statements or drops and doesn't back them up, but it's the most thorough treatment of Lucasology I've seen to date. It's a whopping 400 pages long.


I've actually begun reading it since I downloaded it last night. I'm on the portion where the author disputes that "The Tragedy of Darth Vader" even existed in the rough draft of 1974. It may not be perfect, but the author is one hell of a writer. devil.gif
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#20 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 08:38 PM

QUOTE (Bond @ Jul 17 2007, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've actually begun reading it since I downloaded it last night. I'm on the portion where the author disputes that "The Tragedy of Darth Vader" even existed in the rough draft of 1974. It may not be perfect, but the author is one hell of a writer. devil.gif


Yeah he is! It's basically a thesis! He deserves a degree in something. Lucasology maybe?
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Posted 16 July 2007 - 08:52 PM

Yup, he's got a Master's Degree in Lucasology!


"The circle is now complete: when I left you, I was but the learner; now, I have a Master's Degree!"

"Only a Master's Degree in Evil, Darth!"

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#22 User is offline   parcelbombsmurf Icon

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 02:02 PM

Star Wars may have ended up being a "kid's movie." But that wasn't the intention. If you look at the OT trailers, which you can find on YouTube sometimes, it doesn't mention anything about kids or even have a kid-like atmosphere. And the PT movies weren't kid movies either. The villain in TPM looks like a devil and was chopped in half at the end. For midichlorian's sake, the RoS had a PG-13 rating. "It's a kid's movie" is Lucas's excuse for being incapable of satisfying adult minds in an adult movie.
I've said it before: in actual kid's movies i.e. Ratatouille, Finding Nemo, or one of the Disney live actors movies, etc., the director doesn't say "it's a kid's movie." It's obvious. It goes without saying. And many of those movies are good. They have an internal consistency lacking in the PT.
The kid's that love PT today will be offended at it tomorrow.
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Posted 17 July 2007 - 10:26 PM

I like the PT. I grew up with it. Don't write me off, for crying out loud! angry.gif
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#24 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 12:40 AM

QUOTE (Bond @ Jul 17 2007, 10:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I like the PT. I grew up with it. Don't write me off, for crying out loud! angry.gif


This boy has been malnourished, get him 10CCs of Bladerunner STAT!!!
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Posted 20 July 2007 - 12:43 AM

I've already had 20CCs of 2001, thank you very much. laugh.gif

And, no, I don't think very highly of it. sick.gif
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