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"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" What is Anakin talking about?

#16 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 02:28 PM

The original plan was that Luke's father had joined Obi Wan on some damned fool idealistic crusade, and allegedly been killed by Darth Vader, the Lord of the Sith, a dark Jedi organization that had the puppet Emperor under their thumb. However known only to Ben (and in drafts of ESB, Yoda as well), Luke's father had survived and was in hiding in another part of the galaxy. He is able to contact Luke through Ben in early drafts of the second movie, and promises that he'll be able to return soon, and asks Luke not to quit his training or to give up hope. Beru and Owen didn't want Luke to see Ben because they didn't want him to die fighting the Empire. Presumably this was out of respect for Luke's mother, who had asked that they protect Luke. But also it would have been out of general fear for the young and the brave stupid things they might do.

Lucas dropped all that and came up with the idea that Vader was Luke's father. Which on its own is not too bad, except that it made the prequels difficult to write (he should have asked for help from someone other than his children). It also made the next film hard to do, since it required a lot more than teddy bears in the forest and suddenly Leia is related to Luke as well. That revelation is critical to my childhood realisation that Lucas had bought himself a leather jacket and a speedboat.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#17 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 06:59 PM

QUOTE (Storm @ Apr 9 2007, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think Lucas started making a mess of things when he decided to make Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader the same person. There's no way that was ever his original plan.


nice one.


but to it's credit, it was a cracker of a twist.

and was direct and to the point, and didn't require a strory about someone named plagis. seriously, if: "i've got about feeling about this" could be used 6 times why couldn't "i am your father" be used twice.
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#18 User is offline   TruJade Icon

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 04:04 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Apr 10 2007, 12:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lucas dropped all that and came up with the idea that Vader was Luke's father.
Which on its own is not too bad, except that it made the prequels difficult to write

(he should have asked for help from someone other than his children).

It also made the next film hard to do, since it required a lot more than teddy bears in the forest and suddenly Leia is related to Luke as well. That revelation is critical to my childhood realisation that Lucas had bought himself a leather jacket and a speedboat.




Come on man
do ya think GL really
asked his kids for help.

The story would've been miles
above what it became if he'd
had help from katie & jet

(don't know why i know their names)
'cuz children have imagination
and as you've already stated

Georgie was more interested in dolla dolla bills
laugh.gif

Duct tape is like the force....

There's a lightside, a darkside

and it holds everything together


There are too many people in the world...We need another plague -Dwight K. Shrute [The Office]
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#19 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 12:04 AM

QUOTE (barend @ Apr 11 2007, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
but to it's credit, it was a cracker of a twist.


It is.

I still remember the shock the moment he said the line. Not Darth, but one of another high-schooler. Eight of us sitting around a table in Art Class. One declares "I heard Darth Vader is Luke's Father". Seven souls screamed out in anguish, and one was silenced.
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#20 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 07:37 PM

before ESB, my best friend and I were betting it was Obiwan who was lukes father. That he'd become a shell of a man and the great warrior he once was and didn't want his only son to see how far he'd fallen.
using the ruse of his death also as a means to intensify lukes attitude towards vader.

a pretty intense theory for a couple of 4-5 year olds, but we were pretty intense kids.
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#21 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 15 July 2007 - 12:08 AM

QUOTE (barend @ Apr 9 2007, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
people, robots, chicks....

listen.

the main problem is that he says: "from my point of view, the jedi are evil."

now aside from this being yet another self proclimation of internal proccess (i.e: "you're breaking my heart.") of things people NEVER SAY!!!!, the very fact that he refers to his opnion as being opinion, and more importantly from his own perspective is utterly flawed.

in a heated argument you don't say: "well from my point of view..."
if you're fighting to the death with your previously best friend, then your situation seems to project the fact that you don't consider your understanding of the situation as opnion, let alone a personal one based on perspective but as complete, unquestionable FACT.

the fact that he states his POV as just that, completely undermines his entire motivation and conviction, and completely thows his whole commitment to the fight into extreem doubt to an extent beyond any continuation.


He's echoing what Palpatine said earlier in the film: "Good is a point of view, Anakin." Undoubtedly, this comment of Anakin's is what eventually led to Obi-Wan's "So what I told you was true—from a certain point of view... Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

It's a simple process. tongue.gif
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#22 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 15 July 2007 - 07:33 AM

i wont get into the whole "in the plan" argument, as its been done to friggin megadeath already; however, as for the main topic, i'd like to say i agree overall with mireaux. but, from my point of view, anakin was simply pointing out that all he wanted to do was save the life of his beloved wife and possibly his child, but the jedi ideaology, embodied by the council, stood diametrically oposed to this intrinsically alltruistic quest. see, the sith dont think of themselves as evil or wrong. THEY'RE the onese doing the right thing, following the "true nature of the force". therefore, the jedi MUST be the evil ones.

and yes, barend, you are right about the symantics and syntax of the sentence structure, but while that may be poor dialougue, the essence of the declaration is keenly important to understanding anakin's conflict.


btw, i got 'L's on sale this week so there are a lot of them floating around!

This post has been edited by xenduck: 15 July 2007 - 07:37 AM

Officer! officer! quick! all my money was stolen by a man in flannel!
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#23 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 12:36 AM

Clearly, Anakin is emphasizing his point of view...

Or, at least, George Lucas is, through his subpar screenwriting. biggrin.gif
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#24 User is offline   georgelucas4greedo Icon

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 09:54 AM

QUOTE (Storm @ Apr 10 2007, 12:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think Lucas started making a mess of things when he decided to make Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader the same person. There's no way that was ever his original plan.



The thing is: ESB leaves all of this up for interpretation. Maybe Vader is lying to scare the crap out of Luke.

Its ROTJ that tries to explain every thing in a neat little package, which I guess I can hardly fault it for given the fact that "I am your father" thread is a powder keg.
It seems like everyone is over the nitpicking. Too bad.
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#25 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 10:29 AM

If you read The Secret History of Star Wars, it details how Lucas only combined Father Skywalker with Darth Vader in April of '78, due to story redundancies involving not one, but two Jedi ghosts traipsing about Dagobah; the combination was made to streamline the plot. And, I must say, it was a pretty good combo. biggrin.gif
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#26 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 12:50 PM

Of course, and it also makes Obi-Wan into a stinking liar, when the point of the first movie was that Owen was lying to protect Luke, while Ben was telling the truth!

It's just as silly as "somehow I've always known" this "point of view" nonsense.

And might I point out that Anakin is risking everything for his "hunch" which makes it stupid for him to carefully couch it in language of opinion and point of view.

Padme's brush with death is entirely Anakin's fault. Had he not gotten her pregnant she wouldn't have had a danger of dying in childbirth (and presumably she wouldn't have "willed herself to die" if he hadn't strangled her with the force and called her a liar). She wouldn't have gotten pregnant if they hadn't been having sex, and they wouldn't have been having sex if he hadn't started up a secret illicit relationship with her (we're told that they're BOTH breaking their vows after all).

Anakin has no good reason to believe that Palpatine can give him the power to save lives with the Dark Side. In fact, Palpatine ADMITS he lied to him, and Anakin still pledges himself to his teachings and goes and murders a bunch of people at his command.

Anakin is a selfish twat, there's no way around it, and whatever his point of view, he's evil. Which is why it's just plain stupid for Padme to say "there's good in him" except ham handed retro-active "foreshadowing" for ROTJ. If there's good in him, why are you committing suicide? (Nevermind why your kids aren't enough to live for)

I agree, Anakin should have just stated this like the zealot he is. For him to suddenly qualify his statement like this is just bad writing, unless Lucas just wanted us to feel forced sympathy for the Sith and contempt for the Jedi (because the Jedi intolerantly deal in absolutes, while the Sith are open minded and can see other points of view??).

I feel no sympathy for Anakin whatsoever in these movies.
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#27 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 01:15 PM

QUOTE (mireaux7 @ Apr 8 2007, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
what youre basically missing is that Anakin was initially lead unto Palpatine by his promise of preventing Padme's death. The sheer moment Anakin agreed to allow Palpatine's help, Anakin had pretty much let the guard down, and then began the gradual penetration of the dark side.

Most of the words you hear from Anakin's/Vader's mouth, especially towards the end of ROTS arent really coming from Anakin/Vader, per se...but are really words that are spoken via a deep saturation of evil Sith influence into Anakin, thus changing him into Vader.

think of it as manipulation in the darkest form, brain washing, if you will.

if you befriend someone, they will believe you, as long as what you say seems to hold some sort of logic. when palpatine consistently conjured logical answers to many of anakin's suspicious questions, anakin began to slowly believe palpatine more and more. the more anakin believed and befriended palpatine...the easier it became for palpatine to lure anakin to the dark side

i believe it was said best in ROTS, when Yoda says to Obi-Wan "gone is he, the boy Anakin, consumed by Vader" (something to that extent, not sure on what was said verbatim)

basically, Yoda had already realized that Anakin was at the point of no return,.he had been totally brain-screwed by Palpatine,..so that many of the phrases that you hear anakin/vader recite at the end of the film..are somewhat of unconscious responses,..(meaning, that,.if anakin were of stable mind,..he would have never recited them)

There was an apparent struggle always within Anakin,..as Luke always said to his father "I see the good in you,..I see the conflict"...i cant begin to tell you how true that statement is! ...and i feel its that statement right there, that may help you to understand better what exactly anakin was going thru in ROTS,...it was a definite struggle!...this was apparent by anakin's/vader's scream at the end of ROTS...."NOOOOOOOO!!" when anakin realized he has been transformed into Darth Vader, black suit and all,..by following Palpatine's lies.

But it was the "power of the dark side" that kept Anakin's struggle back to the light side of the force, firmly in place,..with only Luke being the only hope for anakin's return to the light side of the force.

i hope this helps you to better understand, not only what was going on in ROTS, but the entire saga.



Hmm, so why isn't his next act after tearing himself away from the operating table to strangle the life out of the bastard who lied to him and talked him into doing all those horrible deeds?

So he was betrayed but resigns himself to serving him for another 24 years before deciding to try to overthrow him? What?!?
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#28 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE (KurganX @ Jul 18 2007, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hmm, so why isn't his next act after tearing himself away from the operating table to strangle the life out of the bastard who lied to him and talked him into doing all those horrible deeds?


Three simple words: "You killed her."

All of Anakin/Vader's hopes and dreams for the future were crushed by this simple statement.

Finis. End of the Prequel Trilogy.
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#29 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 12:12 AM

It's very interesting to note that Father Skywalker and Darth Vader were not combined until April 1978, with the second draft of Empire.
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#30 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 08:27 AM

And what's not interesting is the backstory of Vader as shown. IMHO; I grew up on the OT.
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