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Chefelf Court justice will be served with a side of cole slaw...

#91 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 06:05 PM

Then you could have made that your starting statement. And not that they're all dictators. By the way, do you have proof of that?
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#92 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 06:18 PM

QUOTE (Otal Nimrodi @ May 10 2006, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Then you could have made that your starting statement. And not that they're all dictators. By the way, do you have proof of that?


Well they technicly ARE dictators. I found two meanings.

dic·ta·tor (dĭk'tā'tər, dĭk-tā'-) pronunciation
n.

1.
1. An absolute ruler.
2. A tyrant; a despot.
2. An ancient Roman magistrate appointed temporarily to deal with an immediate crisis or emergency.
3. One who dictates: These initials are those of the dictator of the letter.


and...

The noun dictator has 3 meanings:

Meaning #1: a speaker who dictates to a secretary or a recording machine

Meaning #2: a ruler who is unconstrained by law
Synonym: potentate

Meaning #3: a person behaves in an tyrannical manner
Synonym: authoritarian


The ones I outlined in Italic, especialy the second one, desribes the last 4 presidents pretty well.

1. Bush, Clinton, Bush and Reagan both used extensive propaganda to further thier cause and shift peoples opinion about "the enemy".

2. The President of the United States has complete control over all Goverment agencies, including civilian and military.

3. All 4 leaders have used questionable means on collecting campaign funds, all 4 have been accused of corruption.

Although, I think the correct term to desribe them is "Elected Dictator".
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#93 User is offline   Mirithorn Icon

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 07:06 PM

Just about every politician ever has tried to extensively influence public opinion.
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#94 User is offline   ion eon Icon

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 08:50 PM

thats is their job
OH NO!!!
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#95 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 02:33 AM

QUOTE (Cobnat @ May 11 2006, 01:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Although, I think the correct term to desribe them is "Elected Dictator".

Gee, I'm glad you said that. Now I don't need to argue against your point anymore, 'cause you've already done it yourself.

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#96 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 07:39 AM

Cobnat, you cant go making ridiculous claims about a system of government that is obviously foreign to you. The people elect their leaders and the President isn’t above the law. Even if it appears as though they have absolute power, there are many laws and regulations they must follow.

As much as I hate Bill Clinton, and as much as I wish George W. Bush really was the warmongering tyrant everyone says he is, the truth is all presidents have a bitch of a time getting things done because of all the legal ass pain they have to endure.

Your not just elected president and automatically get to do whatever you want. All of the presidents you mentioned were far from dictators. Being a strong leader and not bowing to public opinion does not make you a dictator.
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#97 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 08:09 PM

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 11 2006, 04:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cobnat, you cant go making ridiculous claims about a system of government that is obviously foreign to you. The people elect their leaders and the President isn’t above the law. Even if it appears as though they have absolute power, there are many laws and regulations they must follow.


Bush Jr invaded Iraq illegaly, Clinton bombed Yugoslavia in 1995 and 1999 illegaly, Reagan gave weapons to terrorists despite the US's regulations stating "we will not negotiate with terrorists". All 4 presidents rushed bills through congress. All 4 presidents "bent" the constitution one way or another to further thier means. Im not going to even start mentioning what JFK and Nixon did during the Vietnam War.

Despite what thier powers are, the President has much more that he can optain illegaly and many wouldnt even batter an eye lid.

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 11 2006, 04:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Your not just elected president and automatically get to do whatever you want. All of the presidents you mentioned were far from dictators. Being a strong leader and not bowing to public opinion does not make you a dictator.


Then I guess Saddam wasnt a dictator, then I guess Pol-Pot wasnt a dictator, then I guess Mao wasnt a dictator, then I guess Slobo wasnt a dictator.
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#98 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 07:33 AM

Cobnat, if you honestly think the American people would allow themselves to be governed by a dictator, you are obviously not informed enough to participate in a political debate of any kind. Don’t you understand that a vast percentage of Americans have guns and would not be afraid to rise up and over through such a government. You’ve never heard of the Michigan Militia, have you.

You don’t seem to be able to differentiate between a president who makes unpopular decisions and one who openly terrorizes his own people without fear of retribution. Stop making ridiculous claims, its embarrassing.
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#99 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 10:24 AM

Seriously, as I said, you STILL haven't proved dictatorship, only being-an-asshole-ship.

And she's right. A lot of Americans have guns, or can get their hands on them, and know how to use them.

This post has been edited by Otal Nimrodi: 15 May 2006 - 10:25 AM

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#100 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 05:57 PM

You don't honestly think that if the iron fist completely clamped down, that the public would cry "to arms," get out its guns, and lead a glorious revolution, do you? I mean, sure, people would get pissed off and stuff would happen, but given the level of control the government has, and the military presence and training, the public that actually cared about its rights being abruptly taken away (as opposed to the silent, subtle approach currently in effect) would be quickly silenced and oppressed by the military, and the masses would be quickly placated into submission by the media, and the revolutionarys labeled whatever buzz word used to descibe the vague mass enemy of the United States that's currently in effect.

Not that it's an excuse to not fight, of course. I'd die on my feet rather than live on my knees if it came to that and I hadn't fled the country, but I know I wouldn't be able to do much more than make a statement that wouldn't be heard by many except as a statistic in a news blurb.

Cobnat: Yes, politicians are jerks. No, you haven't proved that any of them were dictators. Your statement regarding people who aren't dictators relies on an absurd, logicaly fallible proposition:

Statement: Not all strong leaders are dictators.
Your conclusion (citing dictators accused of crimes against humanity for the purpose of incendiary emotional appeal): No strong leaders are dictators. It's tiring, and everyone can see that it lacks truth value.
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#101 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 06:05 PM

I wasn't saying that everyone would rise to arms.

But I DO think that people are going to at least have some resistance if we end up with a true dictator.
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#102 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 06:08 PM

QUOTE (Slade @ May 15 2006, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cobnat: Yes, politicians are jerks. No, you haven't proved that any of them were dictators. Your statement regarding people who aren't dictators relies on an absurd, logicaly fallible proposition:


Yes, yes. Your right, Im sorry, I was pissed when I wrote that.

But I think we can all agree that they are murderers.

QUOTE (Otal Nimrodi @ May 15 2006, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But I DO think that people are going to at least have some resistance if we end up with a true dictator.


What is a "true dictator"?
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#103 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 07:23 PM

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 15 2006, 07:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cobnat, if you honestly think the American people would allow themselves to be governed by a dictator, you are obviously not informed enough to participate in a political debate of any kind. Don’t you understand that a vast percentage of Americans have guns and would not be afraid to rise up and over through such a government. You’ve never heard of the Michigan Militia, have you.


I just can't imagine that happening.

No one is going to stand up and declare themselves the Emperor. It's going to happen slowly, and subtley. As we've seen recently, it's easy to control people when they're scared, it's easy to convince them that its best for King and country to give up a few of those civil liberties (you won't even notice they're gone) for the safety of the country. A cry of "unpatriotic!" will deal with the nay sayers. You're either with us or against us, after all.
And whats around to show the other side? CNN? Theres the odd lone voice out there (I'm thinking Colbert, not Micheal bloody Moore) who'll give a voice to disassisfaction but the worrying thing about being put under the thumb in this modern day world of unseen threats and red alerts and old glory is its going to happen (it is happening) without people realising it is.

The days of me believing that people will ever rise up and do anything are pretty much well over.
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#104 User is offline   Cyzyk Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 08:08 PM

I wouldn't say those days are over just yet, but I would agree we're heading there.
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#105 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 02:45 PM

Well, guaranteed people around these parts would jump at the chance to bust open their weapons caches for an excuse to overthrow a real dictatorship. If by some chance we elected a complete psycho who turned the US military on its own people, seized all government funds for their personal use, started gassing folks and generally terrorized the people, I think its fair to say the entire state of Texas as well as Michigan, would rise up against him/her/it.

Of course, I’m not talking about a jerk off administration, I’m talking about a no shit genocidal megalomaniac. We’ve been holding on to our right to bear arms for a reason, even if that reason has become pretty unlikely.
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